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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 5, 2013 10:51:49 GMT -6
Nice one Chuck, I replaced the Burgers with tinned Fish, eating stacks of Sardines and Tuna, Sue still buys the usual Bacon, Sausages and other fatty stuff (I am sure she does it on purpose) for the weekend when we have all the family together.
I have noticed that being idle the for last four weeks has made my waist line expand, got to get rid of that weight now the weather has brightened up, in the past I used to jog to the fish and chip shop (its only about 200 yards away) buy dinner and have a slow walk back.
Now go and get your head down, I will hope to see you all fresh and ready to go about 9-00 am tomorrow our time.
Ian.
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 5, 2013 11:05:02 GMT -6
Do we know that Custer actually used the term "Big Village" at all, or could that have been Cooke's term? It seems plausible to me that Custer simply turned to Cooke and said something like "I think it is time that we get Benteen up here", and Cooke took it from there.
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2013 11:35:19 GMT -6
Gatewood, That is absolutly correct. We do not know what Custer said, all we know is what Lt Cooke wrote. In fact I think we had a discussion or a thread on that very subject and what the message would have meant to Benteen. Be Well Dan
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 5, 2013 12:21:17 GMT -6
Whether the terminology was Custer's or not, in order to address QC's question as to what changed in Custer's mind, I think that we need to understand what Benteen's mission was in the first place. It seems as if, when speaking of it, many say that he was supposed to stop any Indians from escaping to the South. This is probably due to Terry's admonition to Custer of "feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank". However, I tend to think that Benteen's movement to the left had more to do with insuring that there were not other Indians already to the south that could potentially strike Reno's rear and preclude that from happening. That being the case, when Custer finally realized the magnitude of the village in front of him, I would submit that what changed in his mind was that he realized that he needed every available man to tackle these Indians and that he would just have to take his chances on the possibility of there being others to the south, so he recalled Benteen.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2013 12:43:46 GMT -6
Gatewood: Fully agree
Dan and Gatewood: It does not matter if Custer said it, or Custer wrote iit scribed in stone, or if Cooke wrote it on Custer's order, or Cooke added it himself with no prompting at all from Custer. The fact is that Big Village was unneccisary to the message. Look what Ian wrote out above. It makes perfect sense without it. Therefore one can conclude that the addition denoted surprise at the size of the village which is not the point at all. It merely reinforces the point along with Reno's small force and Benteen's sojourn. They all thought that they were facing a series of tribal circles seperated by space and time, and not one huge mass of confederated villages. That is the point, a shift from small to large in their minds and the attendent adjustments they must make to their plans.
Yes Dan we did have that discussion, and it all centered on come with or without, come only with, don't you dare show up without the packs, you better show up and I don't give a damn if you have the packs or not, and concluded with endless discussions of speed, going to Reno, final destinations, who struck John, deriliction of duty, exercise of judgment piss, piss, piss, moan, moan, moan, but not once did any one, including myself, disect the message word by word in terms of raw context. If anyone has a better reason for those two words to be inserted in a message that makes perfect sense without them I would like to hear it.
When you direct your attention exclusively to the bark and the insect life that lives on the southwest corner of a given tree in the outside edge of the forest, at about the 184 degree point on the trunk, you often miss the beauty of the forest. You get to far down in the weeds your only reward will be ticks.
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2013 13:13:01 GMT -6
Whether the terminology was Custer's or not, in order to address QC's question as to what changed in Custer's mind, I think that we need to understand what Benteen's mission was in the first place. It seems as if, when speaking of it, many say that he was supposed to stop any Indians from escaping to the South. This is probably due to Terry's admonition to Custer of "feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank". However, I tend to think that Benteen's movement to the left had more to do with insuring that there were not other Indians already to the south that could potentially strike Reno's rear and preclude that from happening. That being the case, when Custer finally realized the magnitude of the village in front of him, I would submit that what changed in his mind was that he realized that he needed every available man to tackle these Indians and that he would just have to take his chances on the possibility of there being others to the south, so he recalled Benteen. Gatewood, Just as the Colonel said, I fully agree with you. It makes no sense to put a blocking force in the same direction you are attacking from. If you are attacking from the South, if people are fleeing they are going to go North. If they are not heading North away from your attack than they are not fleeing they are attacking. This is another reason why I believe Custer was thinking of the Washita. Look at the amount of people he sent away from where he thought his point of contact would be with the enemy. This was no simple scout, this was a recon in force. With almost as many troopers as Custer had to attack with. Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2013 13:28:16 GMT -6
Don't have a map handy. Is there a body of water out along Benteen's route sufficient to sustain a tribal circle sized village? If there is you have your answer as to why along with living up to the letter of Terry's order.
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 5, 2013 13:46:48 GMT -6
I believe that Custer felt that Benteen would strike the LBH itself, and that is where any villages would be located, farther upstream from the main village. He did not realize that there were several intervening valleys, although I believe that at least some of those also had streams sufficient to support small villages.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2013 13:53:23 GMT -6
And eventually striking the LBH makes sense as well, and smart if it had unfolded the way I think we agree he anticipated. At Washita it was the villages upstream that almost cost him a boat load (pun intended) of trouble. Placing an upstream blocking force, while he attended to business with the first of what he probably hoped were many makes a lot of sense, and no I still do not think he planned a re-do of Washita. Every battle has its own perameters, and requires a seperate solution, not same old same old.
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2013 15:16:45 GMT -6
and no I still do not think he planned a re-do of Washita
QDC totally misses the point.And missed it earlier in his exchange with Dan. Benteen was sent off in order to avoid a repetition of the Washita. Dan said [please correct]that Custer was thinking of another Washita.He was and was influenced by his experience there thus the dispatch of Benteen and perhaps Reno.
They all thought that they were facing a series of tribal circles seperated by space and time This is what Dan said days ago only to get a lecture on bias.
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2013 16:45:17 GMT -6
and no I still do not think he planned a re-do of WashitaQDC totally misses the point.And missed it earlier in his exchange with Dan. Benteen was sent off in order to avoid a repetition of the Washita. Dan said [please correct]that Custer was thinking of another Washita.He was and was influenced by his experience there thus the dispatch of Benteen and perhaps Reno.
Richard, This does happen to me from time to time. I know what I want to say but dont express it correctly. I chalk it up more to my inability to convey my thought rather than the other persons ability to understand it. You said more to explain my thought in a couple of sentences than I did in a couple of posts. Much appreciated Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2013 17:06:53 GMT -6
Glad to be of service Dan Best Regards
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Post by quincannon on Mar 5, 2013 17:21:14 GMT -6
OK somebody. tell me how this was like Washita.
At Washita Custer split four ways and surrounded the village, waited untill all were in postion and attacked simultaniously. He completed the task. He then faced a threat from upriver where warriors assembled from the other villages a fair distance away.
Custer split into two elements at LBH, sending the third away from the village. Gatewood and other are probably right Benteen was to eventually be the force that met the hostiles should a repetition of the threat emerge from villages that were thought to be further upriver. OR if any villages, outlyiers were on his line of march he was to attack them, preventing another threat appearing from the west were there any out there. If that is a lesson learned from Washita so be it. It was a good lesson.
So tell me where you see him (Custer) surrounding the village during hours of darkness, surrounding it on four sides mind you,waiting until everyone was in place, the simultaniously attacking the village from the four cardinal directions? Tactically this battle was as far from Washita as a bull is from a bass fiddle. Tell me how people There were indians and cavalry and a village. They even had a river but that's it. Washita was a completely different battle fought in a completely different way,
Dan. Lay Washita out on a map. Then lay out LBH. Then tell me you see no difference, and the two were not like night and day.
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2013 17:53:00 GMT -6
OK somebody. tell me how this was like Washita. At Washita Custer split four ways and surrounded the village, waited untill all were in postion and attacked simultaniously. He completed the task. He then faced a threat from upriver where warriors assembled from the other villages a fair distance away. Custer split into two elements at LBH, sending the third away from the village. Gatewood and other are probably right Benteen was to eventually be the force that met the hostiles should a repetition of the threat emerge from villages that were thought to be further upriver. OR if any villages, outlyiers were on his line of march he was to attack them, preventing another threat appearing from the west were there any out there. If that is a lesson learned from Washita so be it. It was a good lesson. So tell me where you see him (Custer) surrounding the village during hours of darkness, surrounding it on four sides mind you,waiting until everyone was in place, the simultaniously attacking the village from the four cardinal directions? Tactically this battle was as far from Washita as a bull is from a bass fiddle. Tell me how people There were indians and cavalry and a village. They even had a river but that's it. Washita was a completely different battle fought in a completely different way, Dan. Lay Washita out on a map. Then lay out LBH. Then tell me you see no difference, and the two were not like night and day. Colonel, I never said that this was the same as the Washita or even meant to imply it, for all the reasons you stated and in addition the Washita was fought in the middle of winter the LBH in the summer where the temp was over 100 degreees. I know that. What I am saying is that the Washita was the only major battle Custer was engaged in before the LBH and he made an error (NO recon) which almost cost him his regiment. Do you honestly believe he wouldnt remember that and make sure it didnt happen again 8 years later. I also belive that Custers goal or intent at the LBH was the same as the Washita to ride in and shoot down everything in sight. "Porter, their is a large village ahead and there will be a great killing" I never meant to imply that he was going to use the same tactics in order to achieve it, or that the situation at both places were the same. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2013 18:37:53 GMT -6
Dan That may also be why he sent Benteen valley hunting, because he was thinking of the Washita (His only other engagment in his great Indian fighting career) and wanted to make sure their were no other Indian camps to attack him while he was slaughtering this one.
The above post of yours expresses quiet clearly your observation on the influence the Washita could have had on Custer's planning. It is the best reason I have read as to why Benteen was dispatched on his oblique march. You were taken to task on this and lectured on bias. Then your thunder was stolen by the same man who scoffed at your efforts--------They all thought that they were facing a series of tribal circles seperated by space and time Talk about adding insult to injury. Now you are the most inoffensive of posters here, greatly respected and I know you do not want to be drawn into this "spat" between QDC and myself so no need to say anything.Just let the post stand no need to say anything else. Best Wishes
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