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Post by herosrest on Dec 25, 2012 20:27:38 GMT -6
Following, is the basis upon which the progess of elements of Custer's companies moved significantly beyond LSH before and whilst the balance of the command fought upriver towards the mouth of MTC towards Blummers Ridge and Calhoun Hill.
'As the soldiers disappeared, Wolftooth’s band split up. Some followed the soldiers, and the rest went on around a point to cut them off. They caught up there with some that were still going down, and came around them on both sides. The soldiers started shooting; it was the first skirmish of the Custer part of the battle, and it did not last very long. The Indians said they did not try to go in close. After some shooting, both bunches of Indians retreated back to the hills, and the soldiers crossed the south end of the ridge.
The soldiers followed the ridge down to the present cemetery site. Then this bunch of forty or fifty Indians came after them again and started shooting down at them a second time. But the soldiers were moving on down toward the river, across from the Northern Cheyenne camp. Some of the warriors there had come across, and they began firing at the soldiers from the brush in the river bottom. This made the soldiers turn north, but then they went back in the direction they had come from, and stopped when they got to where the cemetery is now. And they waited there—twenty minutes or more. [It may be noted that this Cheyenne version places Glister’s farthest advance a mile or so beyond and west of the ridge where he died and has him retreat to that final position. The most generally accepted story up to now is that he was cut down along the ridge as he moved from the southeast toward the site of his final stand.] The Indians have a joke about his long wait. Beaver Heart said that when the scouts warned Custer about the village, he laughed and said, “When we get to that village, I’m going to find the Sioux girl with the most elk teeth on her dress and take her along with me.” So that is what he was doing those twenty minutes. Looking.
Wolftooth and his band of warriors moved in meanwhile along the ridge above the soldiers. Custer went into the center of a big basin below where the monument is now, and the soldiers of the Gray Horse Company [Company E, under Lieutenant Algernon Smith] got off their horses and moved up on foot. If there had not been so many Indians on the ridge above, they might have retreated over that way, either then or later when the fighting got bad, and gone to join Reno. But there were too many up above, and the firing was getting heavy from the other side now.
Most of the Northern Cheyennes were down at the Custer end of the fight, but one or two were up at the Reno fight with the Sioux.'
So, what is there for comparison and verification?
Amongst first hand accounts there is....... zilch. There is supposition and theory by researchers superceding Kulman's SSL since WWII. John Stands in Timber was about two years old when the battle was fought.
Amongst first hand accounts is information given by Cusyer's scouts to Hugh Lennox Scott under affadavit in 1919. By both the Crow and Cheyenne accounts, Custer was across from the Cheyenne camp when Wolf Tooth and Big Foot put up their heroic defence interdicting and delaying Custer's advance towards the river. The map provided by E.S. Curtis using information gained from Custer's scouts and warriors who fought indicates where Custer was when movement away from the river commenced, that was from the mouth of Deep Coulee and nearby terminus of Greasy Grass Ridge.
This is stated in the Cheyenne account of Wolf Tooths fight. The village was across the river from the mouth of Deep Coulee and therefore the cemetary referred to was the Custer battle~ground.
This matter is a ridiculous mess.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 25, 2012 23:07:31 GMT -6
It never has, and never will, be anything other than errant fiction ~ ' So the suicide boys were the last Indians to enter the fight. Wolftooth said they were really watching for them, and at last they rode out down below. They galloped up to the level ground near where the museum is now; some turned and stampeded the gray horses of the soldiers. By then they were mostly loose, the ones that had not been shot. The rest of the boys charged right in at the place where the soldiers were making their stand, and the others followed them as soon as they got the horses away.
The suicide boys started the hand-to-hand fighting, and all of them were killed there or were wounded and died later. When the soldiers started shooting at them, the Indians above with Wolftooth came in from the other side. Then there was no time for the soldiers to take aim or anything. The Indians were right behind and among them. Some soldiers started to run along the edge under the top of the ridge, and for a distance they scattered, some going on one side and some the other. But they were all killed before they got far.
Gall through Godfrey places the gray horse troop between LSH and Calhoun. Cheyenne accounts place Grays on LSH. In fact all other accounts place grays on the battle~ground and cross referencing numerous sources proves this beyond any reasonable doubt. There is disparity in accounts by Two Moon of red or white horses at LSH and Lt. DeRudio placing Company C mounts dead there. TWO Moon indicated a route taken to Deep Ravine by stampeded cavalry mounts. Lazy White Bull through Stanley Veztal has very much to tell about cavalry movement along and over Battle Ridge. As matters stand there were no dead cavalry laying in the area of the National Cemetary, vistor centre or stone house and therefore no hand to hand fighting in that locale.
It was apparent to Grinnell and other authors that confusion existed relative to monuments, hence reference to them specifically, but by 1908 confusion had already set into minds of his Cheyenne informants, where regardless of memory the placing of the Stone monument and creation of the National cemetary could do nothing but feed confusion and perceptions.
The Cheyenne village was where it was when 7th Cavalry attacked the Big Village. It moved later that day and perceptions since continue to move with it. A personal thought, what a mess this is and no way to sort it out because of the weight of cod's wallop spoon fed by authors for half a century and more. Strong hearts required and a couple of Sioux criers to walk along the line before the suicide charge. Bit late for them now l'd guess.
This will be quite a book if l decide to write it.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 25, 2012 23:42:21 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 26, 2012 7:48:21 GMT -6
Amongst first hand accounts is information given by Cusyer's scouts to Hugh Lennox Scott under affidavit in 1919.
Can you produce something labeled an affidavit? Exactly what legal action anticipated would require an affidavit in 1919 of events that occurred in 1876?
Seems to me at best an aged account. Not sure what you are talking about though. As an Indian Commissioner you think Scott was conducting and investigation?
"In American jurisprudence, under the rules for hearsay, admission of an unsupported affidavit as evidence is unusual (especially if the affiant is not available for cross-examination) with regard to material facts which may be dispositive of the matter at bar."
If you think labeling something an affidavit with no legal action anticipated is the same as sworn testimony in a legal proceeding it would explain why you think the word "affidavit" is useful to elevate an interview with someone to get thier account of events 43 years earlier.
AZ Ranger
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Post by herosrest on Dec 26, 2012 21:34:36 GMT -6
Military law and its jurisprusence is an odd beast that usually preceds civilsation, its proponents are something of a major pain of neccesity and several stomped across the battles history from the beginning with Terry's adc Hughes, on to W.A. Graham and on, making various cases of thin air into balls with chains. Lawyers are a ver odd lot who in neccesity will offer and convince that clouds consist of marshmallow, the sky is purple and they, themselves walk on water, if that serves their purpose. At LBH that has been the case, which is open and shut against them.
Following is basis upon which, a rational person would rebuff any attempt at criticism or confusing what took place at LBH.
Interview with Curley, July 19, 1910, Fred Old Horn, Interpreter. BYU.
Curley is a Mountain Crow. Agency at Sweetwater. Get as much of his early history. Had he fought Sioux before 1876? Yes I helped to steal some of Sioux horses, and some of our men were killed. In some of these trips we got into tight places and had narrow escapes.
Crows called Custer Young Star, Gibbon No Hip, Terry Morning Star. Did ever see photo of Half Yellow Face and where? No. Never saw his photo. Died soon after fight.
When Custer separated from Reno he took Mitch Bouyer and 6 Crows. Was Billy Cross or other scout there? No. No scouts but Bouyer and Crows. Why not all six Crows? Custer had told Half Yellow Face and White Swan to go up on hill and take a look around, and instead of doing this they went with Reno. They were afraid and did not want to do as Custer ordered them. This was some little time after we had parted from Reno. These two Crows met Reno's soldiers at Ford A.
Bouyer and the Crows were ahead of Custer's command. Custer did not see Reno's fight. Mitch Bouyer and myself did. When Reno fighting no one but Mitch Bouyer with me. Before got to Crow Hill, Bouyer waved hat to Custer from here. Saw Reno fighting from Edgerly peaks.
How much of Reno's battle did Curley see? Did he see Reno's retreat? Yes, saw retreat and Bouyer then gave signal to Custer. Custer and Tom Custer returned signal by waving hats, and men cheered. Bouyer probably told Custer Reno had been defeated, for Bouyer did a whole lot of talking to Custer when he joined him and kept talking while they were riding side by side.
Get from him a more definite statement as to where 3 Crows left Bouyer. Get it on the ground if possible. Hairy Moccasin, White Man, and Goes Ahead must have left Bouyer before Reno's battle ended because while Reno was retreating they were down near Ford A. I therefore think that Curley and Bouyer were on Weir hill alone. See what Goes Ahead says.
When he and Bouyer, on Bouyer hill, saw Custer's command up Medicine Tail Coulee, was the command standing still or coming down the coulee? Coming. When he and Bouyer went from bluff down into Medicine Tail Coulee to meet Custer did Custer remain there any length of time? No, kept going right on. Also whether Custer stopped in Medicine Tail coulee any considerable length of time. What he was doing there etc., or why he was waiting? Did not stop.
In retreating up from river what was the formationcolumn or skirmish line? What officer did he see on this retreat and where was he, in front or rear? What was Custer doing down at the river and how long did he wait down there? No time at all. Did he see any soldiers on top of Greasy Grass hill while he was on the flat or at any other time?
Yes, 10 or 15 went up and along the ridge, probably guides or flankers. When whole command was at Finley the volleys were fired, and they were fired at the Sioux who were closing in.
Curley got away to 4 markers at extreme southeast. While here the Indians were killing soldiers over by Finley, and all soldiers halted here. Sioux were on all sides shooting. Soldiers were dismounted and leading horses and firing at Sioux the best they could. Sioux were all along on Custer Ridge. Mitch Bouyer said, ''You had better leave now for we will all be cleaned out." Bouyer told me to ride out through the coulee over to east. Bouyer had just been talking with General Custer and Custer's brother Tom, and then he came and told me this.
From where Curley left at the 4 markers, the bearing to coulee up which rode is N81 deg. E or 9 deg. north of east natural bearings. When he was escaping as before, did he see anything of the 5 men of Co. F? No. When I rode out, there were no Sioux in front. I had a cape and cap made of a blanket and threw it over my head and rode out in disguise. The Sioux gave chase, but my horse was too fast, and they did not pursue far and I soon got away from them. Not sure that they knew me to be a Crow. I rode up the coulee to the head of it and over the distant ridge. I had my own gun, a Winchester, and leggin's on.
About Fenton Campbell's interpretation concerning Curley getting the Winchester from dead Sioux etc. Soldiers killed this Sioux, and I took his gun and threw mine away. Had fired away all my ammunition. I had only thirty shells, and the soldiers shells would not fit mine; so I took that of the Sioux.
What route to steamer? To Tullock to Rosebud and then across to Big Horn. After leaving Custer, went beyond high point close to Tullock's fork and next morning went to Rosebud and back to Big Horn. Did not go to mouth of Rosebud. Started west because my home in that direction. Intended to go to north of Big Horn where I thought there would be a camp (and there was such). Ask again whether he went to the mouth of the Rosebud after leaving Little Bighorn and before he came to the boat. No, went to Rosebud but not to mouth.
In Bismarck Tribune July 12, 1876, Grant Marsh reports that Curley came to boat on morning of June 27, and "before Terry had found remains of the Custer command." Says Curley captured 2 horses from Sioux. Says Curley then told (as soon as interpreter could be had) about changing the dress of his hair in getting out of Custer fight. . . . It occurs to me after reading Marsh's story that Curley must have got to the boat on the 27. He would not therefore have time to go to mouth of Rosebud but may have started for there and saw the smoke of the steamer from high ground.
Ask him if he remembers drawing the two circles to indicate that Custer was surrounded and destroyed. At the steamer I told of Custer's defeat by sticking little sticks in the ground and then sweeping them away with my hand. I also pointed at the sticks and made motions like scalping by pulling at my own hair and groaning, but the soldiers were dull and did not appear to understand me. I also did this on top of a box.
He also continually repeated "Absaroke. Absaroke." What did he mean by this? He meant that he was a Crow and that the other scouts had run away and soldiers killed. One of the things Curley did to convey information of who he was was to beat upon his breast and say "Absaroke. Absaroke." Some of the scholarly men about Washington and elsewhere are still studying the archives to find out what Curley meant. What Curley was trying to make them understand was simply: "I am a Crow.'' It occurred to Curley that if they could be made to know that he was a Crow, they might surmise where he had come from (Custer). When I told Curley in 1910 that the historians were still doubtful as to the translation of the word Absaroke, he had a hearty laugh.
New York Herald 7/11/76 col. 2: Capt. E. W. Smith told the correspondent (Lounsberry) that the map of the battlefield drawn by Curley at the steamboat is absolutely correct. See account of an officer of 7th Inf. (evidently) in New York Herald 7/13/76, col. 1, where he says the Crows reported 3 of their number killed. Curley's story to Gen. Roe 3/8/81 (Army and Navy Journal 3/25/1882, p. 761), La Forge interpreter (probably made up a good deal of it or the interview was not on the ground but at Ft. Custer).
Curley on June 28 carried a message from Far West to battlefield and saw some of the dead buried. The dead were then partly buried. This was the next day after he got to the steamer.
I was then given another message and sent back to steamer which was tied up right where ice house of Ft. Custer was afterward built. Soldiers on steamer put grass in steamer to put wounded on. That night carried wounded soldiers down and put on steamer and next morning went to Yellowstone river, and Half Yellow Face and I camped with the soldiers.
Late in p.m. we got to Pease bottom where the steamer was. There we were ferried across Yellowstone by steamer, I and my horse were the first to go on board. We had Tom LaForge on steamer, a good interpreter. The soldiers knew that I had been with Custer and talked with me much. I have always told the same story but there have been different interpreters.
Next morning went to No Hip and among the infantry troops that walked there was an officer with a white mustache. I was barefoot and wished I had a pair of shoes. I had got my moccasins wet and torn them and was in bad shape. I talked to Gibbon and this officer and said: "You enlisted us to fight the Sioux and then went and sold us 6 Crows to Custer for $600. I was told this by Bouyer. I don't like this and I want to go home. You have not used us for the purpose for which we enlisted, and you have got me nearly killed. I want to go home.“ Gibbon said: "Well, you have nearly lost your life and you may go." Gibbon gave me meat and sugar and hardtack and let me go home. Left the soldiers seven days after the fight and went home. White Swan, who was shot in thigh and wrist stayed at Pease Bottom and doctor with him until his folks came after him. White Swan's horse was hit three times. White Swan was shot in the retreat of the Rees out of bottom.
About finding of body of Nathan Short. What does he remember about it? Nothing. Was not there. Did he and Half Yellow Face accompany detail that took away bodies of officers in 1877? Get him to tell me something about it.
Yes, I was there, but Half Yellow Face not. We looked for Bouyer's body for eight days and never found it. We found his saddle and horse in village but not the body.
From Interview with Curley, September 30, 1913, Thomas Le Forge, Interpreter. Lilly Library.
The reason White Swan and Half Yellow Face went with Reno was that at about the time Custer left the divide, he ordered these two Crows to go to a certain high point on a butte and take a look. They did this, and instead of coming back to Custer and reporting, they went over to Reno's battalion and remained with him. The other four Crows remained with Custer until we got to ridge south of Medicine Tail coulee. Here Hairy Moccasin, White Man Runs Him, and Goes Ahead left us, and Mitch and I went on. We joined Custer on Medicine Tail Coulee as he was advancing toward the village. He did not halt after we joined him. He had all the bugles blowing for some time, the purpose of which I did not understand [perhaps he was having them play Garry OwenWMC].
I had seen Reno defeated in the bottom and discussed it with Mitch. I saw Mitch say something to General Custer when we met him and presumed that he must have informed him about Reno's situation.
On the battlefield, near Calhoun marker, I saw Mitch talking with the general. Mitch said that Custer told him the command would very likely all be wiped out and he (Custer) wanted the scouts to get out if they could. I was riding my own horse. I found a dead Sioux and exchanged my Winchester for his Sharps rifle and belt of cartridges. On my saddle I had a coat made of a blanket with holes cut out for arms, and a hood over my head. In this fashion I rode out.
I first went over to Lookout Point and remained at the summit, on back side, until sundown. From there I could see soldiers gathered on Reno hill. I went on and got to Tullock's fork by dark. There I halted and next went to Sarpy Creek and down it to Yellowstone and up it, on south side, and saw camp over in Pease bottom. In that vicinity I shot and killed a bull (buffalo) and roasted some of the meat, which was the first thing I had to eat since leaving the soldiers.
I went on upstream and picked up Gibbon's trail and followed it to the steamer. On this trail I found fragments of hardtack to eat. After I got to the boat, a white man was going up to the battlefield and I went with him. When I got there the dead had not all been buried. I was sent back to the boat with a message and slept on the boat that night, June 28. I had only one horse when I arrived at the boat.
That implications are the consequence of Curley's account is unfortunate. Was Jesus sinned against or the sinner. You might find the opinion of the Temple of Solomon, surprising but the man did upset their actuarial tables and was put to death because of that.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 26, 2012 22:25:39 GMT -6
Relating the Custer fighting related by Curley to Lt. Clark's map of the battle simply shows what took place rather than what people want to have happened. The same applies the sketch by Freeman, which can explain a presence on Blummer's Ridge, and Maguire's routes of march. Because trumpeter Martin left the command before the gray horse troop were sent along the river, and he departed fron MTC, Custer DID NOT use Cedar Coulee to reach MTC.
There was a reason for the disagreement between Varnum and Godfrey about Varnum's sighting of Custer's command. Godfrey was being exceedingly ungentlemanly and very odd. It is surprising that Varnum didn't request a Court of Inquiry.
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Post by fred on Dec 26, 2012 22:30:50 GMT -6
Relating the Custer fighting related by Curley to Lt. Clark's map of the battle simply shows what took place rather than what people want to have happened. Are you for real? Herosrest, I was in the process of giving you a little more credit than most here do. This comment of yours is making me reconsider. If you believe anything Curley said, then I have some real estate in Darfur you might be interested in purchasing. Seriously? Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by herosrest on Dec 26, 2012 22:39:24 GMT -6
There is a problem with messaging at LBH, that problem is not mine. It should neither be your own. I wish you a good and prosperous new year and will admit that l enjoy and admire your stubborn, militaryness. Be well. LBH was Custer's disaster and had he survived he would have faced up the consequences. All or nothing. It WAS all Terry's fault and Hughes started a ball rolling besides Whittaker. It's silly to endure from this distance in time or so l feel.
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Post by fred on Dec 26, 2012 22:53:42 GMT -6
There is a problem with messaging at LBH, that problem is not mine. It should neither be your own. I wish you a good and prosperous new year and will admit that l enjoy and admire your stubborn, militaryness. Be well. LBH was Custer's disaster and had he survived he would have faced up the consequences. Herosrest, In many ways you are correct, but you make the whole thing too complicated. I do not know what you mean by that first sentence, though I agree the problem is not yours... nor mine. This was a five-hour event-- shorter, actually-- an awful lot that unfolded very quickly and very simply. Like the end results of almost all military operations, it ended in a fast, simple, and logical way. Curley didn't lie; he fabricated. He gave them what they wanted to hear. He tickled their hair follicles; he roused the perspiration on their foreheads; he widened their eyes... and the more he did it, the more fantastic his stories became. He wasn't even there. Happy New Year, HR. I hope things go well for you. You seem kind and generous... and I hope you are rewarded for it all. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 27, 2012 6:33:47 GMT -6
So can I assume you cannot produce the affidavit you speak of?
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jag
Full Member
Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
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Post by jag on Dec 27, 2012 8:26:11 GMT -6
There is a problem with messaging at LBH, that problem is not mine. It should neither be your own. I wish you a good and prosperous new year and will admit that l enjoy and admire your stubborn, militaryness. Be well. LBH was Custer's disaster and had he survived he would have faced up the consequences. All or nothing. It WAS all Terry's fault and Hughes started a ball rolling besides Whittaker. It's silly to endure from this distance in time or so l feel. An unfortunate truth that cannot be unresearched is when the new book comes out it'll be just like a Cowboy QB singing 'Turn out the lights the party's over.' Yuuuupppp! There'll be no need to have Howard Cosell differences of opinion or even places like this to have reason to differ. It'll all be layed out for you, the plain and simple truth, mysteries galore in, on, around, before, during and after the LBH all solved and not one dissenting voice be heard. All in there also - wonders to behold, the ties that bind sold, the works all done so pack it up buy the book, read the truths untold and forget about places like this. |
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Post by wild on Dec 27, 2012 9:34:44 GMT -6
Just wondering could Indians read a contour map?Would they understand what a contour line represented,would they understand the contour interval,would they be able to distinguish the difference between a depression and a summit.Would they understand a height reference?Would they understand compass directions ie NorthEast.
How about map scale?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 27, 2012 9:56:40 GMT -6
Curly told the truth through the first year, I'd guess. What he said to Terry's guys made sense before the newspaper types got to him. He'd be terrified, depressed, and suddenly relieved at finding shelter. Like Martin he'd upholster through the years. It's why I think the arrival date of an account is key, and why it is better to formulate a theory based solely upon what is known to have been said before and through the RCOI, when tale tellers would be wary of many others who were present and available.
I'm wary of Indian accounts not because they're Indians but because they are not first hand accounts ever. They go through translators at best, which is a degree away. At least. Mostly, we have only accounts OF accounts from people not present by generations and one or two translations in the interim. Gold, they. Not.
Just to nag: language translation is not like code, where single words, phrases, or numbers sub for others. It's code plus encryption, because in the Indian languages at issue word meanings often are dependent on the other words in the sentence, which isn't a sentence in the English sense but one long word. And the languages are similar enough to be confusing and they were in constant change, a penalty of having no written language at the time for common reference.
So, when people are described as conversant in several northern plain languages plus sign plus French, Spanish, and English, every red light you have should be bright. Saying hello, nice day, gimme that, and then lapsing into a detailed sequential tale based upon the 12 hour clock should be held back before being accepted.
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Post by herosrest on Dec 27, 2012 15:37:47 GMT -6
Regards DC, Language most certainly is an art form of conveyance. It can be noted that Curley said he simply told his story repeatedly. The same information tempered by each actual question. lt is intersting about Camp's technique of clustering questions with guidance or overview, that only one of the clump of questions was answered. Curley was not particularly sophisticated or commercialised, he could be noble and to Camp, he gave lie to Whittaker's gilded demise in the 1876 book. Your assessment leans towards the guy, as many have but does not acknowledge that his traditional accountin events was manipulated by authors certainly and confused and manipulated by interpreters. They were the problem and not Curley. Whittaker set the example besides rushing, manipulating and mispresenting. Those faulting Curley fall down with the Camp interviews which are thorough, detailed, competant and unsensational. Consider the empirical somersaults J.S. Gray inflictedupon the straight forward Camp interviews. Once l had hunkered down with Gray's studies and thought through how he did his thing, l was profoundly insulted at the stunts he pulled. l believe his health was failing but that was entirely sloppy and very poor analysis, done with beautiful style and urgency and a very neat intellectual trick. Curley's interviews stand up well to the warrior interviews and that is sufficient to validate him. Whittaker and journalists caused the unfortunate disregard that continuestowards Curley, they and of course the sheer popularity of his story and the broader battle history. He is a victim of the battle's history but his accounts bear up. One of the confusions is his escape from the battle and that confusion centres around the blanket indian, mentioned eloquently by Peter Thompson. That is the context of his comments and one that few grasped in relating him. He disguised himself with a poncho as worn by many on the reservations and that was a derogatory term stemmed from the free hostiles. Fred, thank you. The broad and specific studies are too complicated, not li'l down to earth me.  Cross referencing and analysis should indicate that Curley related factual data but beyond that he became mired in the controvercy. Personal interests and loyalties became ensnared with disassociated subjective research and insatiable commercial demand and yet the monument and those directly responsible for it, struggle for the resources it deserves. People are too coy on matters concerning Curley and believe that contradictions can be ignored or batted away. AZR ~ I am sure the original leagal documents are part of a collection somewhere and just a google away. Perhaps it would be worth troubling Hugh Lennox Scott about the matter. The interviews are part of the battle's history, just as Reno's Inquiry and the consequences of misdemeanour under oath, or perjury, apply universally. l doubt that anyone would have court martialed White Man Runs Him but a scandal would have done him no good. There are simply problems to be solved, for example, why Reno did not know Custer was to support his rear. An opinion is the view that Custer did not tell him but there are problems with messaging, those who say or are said to have carried them. General ~ Cross referencing and analysis indicates that Curley related factual data about Custer's advance and battle. It correlates well with the tribal interviews conducted by and for Walter M. Camp and gives insight that is unique. ln terms of tacticals, Custer was at Calhoun when Finley was being overwhelmed. That is priceless and significant beyond theory by being the starting place for theory. W.M.Camp did not have knowledge of the Cheyennes present east of the river during early fighting and had the problemm of Godfrey's theory that the troopers did not approach the river. Camp is seriously flawed by his understanding of the layout of the Big Village. If the resources devoted to time study were instead cross referencing tribal accounts, a very accurate tactical picture would have evolved by now. Cherokee Advocate ~ Various accounts of the battlegrounds condition in 1877 exist particularly that of W.A. Allen and a news article by the well named Cherokee Advocate newspaper digital.library.okstate.edu/encyclopedia/entries/R/RO032.html there seem to have been a number more casualties during eary fighting than is believed today. W.A. Allen's observations of thousands of spent shells at Dry Creek and along a dead line is yet to reflect in archaeology but sampling is believed to currently retrieve perhaps only 35% of the record, when looking at the correct spots. News wise from editorials in the Winfield Courier, July 19, 1877. Custer's remains and three of the officers that fell with him have been brought in for a more appropriate burial. Sitting Bull has given his account of the battle in which Custer's command was annihilated. He states that the battle lasted only thirty minutes, and that Custer with a few men and officers had cut through the Indian line when he returned and charged back. The Indians were bewildered by this unlooked for desperate charge, but closed in on the few men and killed them all. Custer, it is said, shot five Indians and went down beating another with the butt of his revolver. This account corresponds with others coming from Indian sources. The above item may have sown the early seed of movement by Custer down river beyond Custer's Ridge and with Sitting Bull as the original source should now be entirely dead in the water, like several of Reno's command. |
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Post by zekesgirl on Dec 27, 2012 17:10:05 GMT -6
Interesting that you cite my hometown newspaper (still in publication btw), but Sitting Bull did not join the battle and no one knew it was Custer until it was over. I really don't think any Indians stood still long enough to "know" one soldier shoot 5 of their number.
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