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Post by quincannon on Feb 24, 2013 17:53:54 GMT -6
Chris: I think first off that would be highly improbable, that anyone would expect the hostiles to come back once they left. That is not to say that adequate security should not be in place. But lets say that was a very real concern and that the condition of the wounded was also a grave factor. What would have probably taken place is a hasty shallow hole would have been dug, the body dumped in it, and perhaps, only perhaps a rough map made of the main burial locations, leaving the outlyers off, knowing that those individual bodies would be disturbed by animals and nature anyway. Under conditions you describe you do what you have to do and can sometimes do no more. Graves registration to the extent we have it today was not in play. Maybe it was such actions as LBH that made us so conscience of the need to record these things in minute detail. Don't know but that would make a heck of a paper for some Quartermaster officer at C&GS College.
So what if there were no markers? Let me turn that around and say if they paid as much attention to this little battle as they did to even the little ones in the Civil War, we may very well know more about what happened rather than less. Not long after the ACW and continuing until the early 20th century, the military itself made an indepth study of these battles. Official Records of the War of The Rebellion has much in depth detail and some very good maps appended to it. This was supplemented by private individuals who had served in the war and made it a point to record in minute detail what happened. For instance the maps contained In Bigelow's Chancellorsville are supurb.
Many years ago I did a paper on the Battle of Chantilly or Ox Hill as it was known by the confederates. A friend of mine at the Center of Military History steered me onto a lot of stuff I did not know that existed. Chief among this material were the papers of a Captain Stevens (his father was killed at Chantilly, and he was badly wounded) and a Captain Walcott. They recorded a visit twenty years after (in the 1880's) the battle in such minute detail that I had absolutely no trouble retracing their steps in the late 1970's. Could not do that today as it has been completely built over, and only a very small Fairfax County Park remains. The point is that none of this was done at LBH soon enough to record all this. Remote location was the most probable reason.
Had this been done, markers would be largely irrelevent. It was not done to the extent required, and the markers as imperfect as their location may be are some of the only tools we have.
As a small sidebar: The recording of all these things has taken on great importance. I have mentioned Marshall's book "Infantry In Battle" here several times. He and his staff, (actually the effort preceeded Marshalls's assinment to the Infantry School) examined in minute detail small unit actions in WWI for the purpose of gleaning lessons learned. Today we have military history detachments attached at brigade and higher level for this express purpose. Sometimes in my more reflective moments I think that it is incidents like LBH that eventually led to the appreciation of this type detail, mainly for the purpose of learning the lessons each battle teaches us, and the added benifit for the future historian and the occasion fellow just like us who would like to know just what did transpire.
Now back to your question. These were Victorian times and I suspect had what you speculated upon happened and Terry and the rest were not physically driven from that field, not doing something for those bodies would be long remembered, and it would not be pretty.
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Post by wild on Feb 25, 2013 1:20:06 GMT -6
Chris At Isandalwana the fallen were gathered up and buried in mass graves marked by Kerns. At the Spionkop the troops were left in the trench in which they died and covered over with rocks. I would guess that a burial detail sent to the LBH without markers would use a number of mass graves located where the main groups of troops were found.Those graves together with eyewitness [aftermath]accounts would leave us a picture not very different from that which the markers leave us.And thus leave us divided between two main scenarios to wit a sudden collaspe or a battle which progressed through a series of maneuvers. Just on those two scenarios---If you arrive at the scene as Benteen did and see a mess and call it a mess, that is more probable that seeing a mess and calling it a complex system gone wrong.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 18, 2013 11:38:51 GMT -6
Ah. Was on diabetic response last Xmas and missed this.
Okay. There are 52 markers within the fence, we're told. That's ten too many. Feral took those out. He then placed markers where I'd suggested along the road to Keogh's area, and put markers connoting the Custer group where the monument is. But he didn't remove that number from those on the hill, and so it still looks over full. I missed that, my error.
Also, what exactly did Godfrey define as 'the Hill.' We assume just the fence area, but likely much larger.
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Post by fred on Aug 18, 2013 13:05:43 GMT -6
Hold on, DC....
Some how I missed feral's entire sequence of photos, and while yanking out those ten makes things look better, it is still way too inaccurate.
First of all, the HQ-E-F contingent consisted of 88 men, GAC included. One man was killed and his body seen about 500 yards east of Ford B. That leaves 87. Marc Kellogg's body was discovered some distance between Ford D and the flats near Cemetery Ridge. 86.
Six bodies were discovered on Cemetery Ridge, down aways. 82.
A dozen or so accounts claim 28 bodies in Deep Ravine. Some said 30; others said a bunch; but several used the number 28, leading me to between they actually counted the bodies. 54.
McDougall said there were only a few bodies between the deep gully and where Custer lay. He was sure there were less than 12 and might not have been more than 6. LT Thompson said only 9 – 10 men lay between Custer and the gully. One of them had to be Boyer. This is considered the South Skirmish Line (SSL). Compromise... average it out... nine men. 45.
Ten men from the C-I-L commands were identified in the HQ-E-F sector, all ten considered refugees not assigned to other units. There may have been more, but since there was no ID'ing, go with ten. 55.
GAC and seven others were found at the top and a little below the peak of the hill, say six to ten feet from the memorial's edge.
Boston Custer and Autie Reed were found about 100 yards below GAC. That may be far enough down the slope to qualify for McDougall's and Thompson's claims, but since both knew the two and neither mentioned them by name, we can assume those relatives were part of those considered dying on "LSH."
Dr. Lord lay about 20 feet southeast of Custer on side of the hill. Still considered LSH?
F Company's John Briody was found near the Deep Ravine head cut, a considerable distance-- 50 yards or more-- closer to the river than today's head cut. 54.
Markers 29-32 are located in Cemetery Ravine, just off the slopes of the SSL. 50.
Another half-dozen or so were reported to have made a break for it, probably dying on the upper west side of Battle Ridge. 44 or thereabouts?
The question now comes in defining the limits of LSH and are those limits physically defined by Boston and Harry Reed?
By the way, I really like feral's graphics.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 18, 2013 13:21:29 GMT -6
Looking back at the image altered by Chris, you could almost imagine those black silhouettes being scared Troopers and this was the Indians eye view of this small bunch just waiting to be butchered.
Fred: apart from Lt. Smith and maybe Pvt Knecht, would I be correct in saying that these are the only men from E Company to be counted as being on LSH?
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 18, 2013 14:12:14 GMT -6
... apart from Lt. Smith and maybe Pvt Knecht, would I be correct in saying that these are the only men from E Company to be counted as being on LSH? Ian, Where do you get Knecht from? Knecht was tentatively ID'ed by DeVoto in Deep Ravine. They enlisted together. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 16:01:15 GMT -6
Fred and DC, With direction from you both, I'll alter the images to suit. Best, c.
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Post by fred on Aug 18, 2013 16:10:02 GMT -6
With direction from you both, I'll alter the images to suit. Chris, my boy! Could you e-mail those two images to me? LSH without the fence and then the one with the figures. Easier to work with. Thanks. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2013 17:06:48 GMT -6
Yes. Best, c.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 18, 2013 20:17:50 GMT -6
The question of what is LSH is valid, but I was putting that aside and just dealing with the 52 within the fence. I'm trying to impress upon everyone how, when just adjusting those are placed more or less how accounts had them, it's a very, very different feel to the image that has been burned into our minds. Thready, and two lines, one to Keogh, and one to the river. Where specifically they are doesn't really matter and isn't, in any case, knowable. Getting a more realistic image of the LSH changes you. Really.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 19, 2013 5:05:18 GMT -6
Sorry Fred you are right about Knecht, he was Identified along with Hohmeyer,Ogden, Brown, Meyer, Farrell, Huber and Rees, so I apologise for my mistake because I have the list in front of me now so I don’t know how I managed to place him on LSH.
So the only man identified from E Company on LSH was Lt. Smith. That could mean that the 37 men in E Company were totally separated from the HQ/F Coy group, now I know it’s hard to pinpoint where E Company was located when it got hit, but Cemetery ridge is one place named. Now on my map I make the distance from Cemetery to LSH to be around 300-350 yards, so if it is correct that not one man from E managed to make the 300yrds up to LSH then they the accounts over them being dismounted must carry some weight, probably because they were on foot and lost their horses due to pressure and then they got cut off and isolated.
The combined strength of the HQ/F Coy + Smith and the civilians was 52 and only 26 were named (Fred if I have bollocks this up please let me have it).
HQ Co Lieutenant G Custer Capt. T Custer Lt. W Cooke 1st Lieutenant Dr E Lord Sgt Major M Sharrow Chief Trumpeter Sgt H Voss Sgt F Hughes *** Corporal J Callahan Trumpeter H Dose 1st Lt. A Smith
***Fred wrote that he could have been ID at three locations (LSH, CR & DR)
Other individuals attached to the HQ but found elsewhere Mitch Bouyer Autie Reed Boston Custer Mark Kellogg
F Company (38 men only 12 Identified) Captain G Yates 2nd Lt. W Reily 1st Sgt M Kenney Sgt J Vickory Corporal W Teeman Pvt A Dohman Pvt T Donnelly Pvt G Klein Pvt W Lerock Pvt W Liemann
Corporal J Briody (body Identified elsewhere) Pvt W Brown (body Identified elsewhere)
If there are 42 markers so if we add the men from made it from the Keogh sector and add the two couriers sent by Reno (all Identified) we have 29 Identified bodies out of the 42 marked. Couriers; Pvt A McIlhargey (I) Pvt J Mitchell (I)
Keogh survivors;
Pvt Y Stungewitz (C) Pvt W Wright (C)
Pvt C McCarthy (L) Pvt O Pardee (L) Pvt T Tweed (L)
Pvt J Parker (I) Pvt E Driscoll (I)
PS info from the pages of F. Wagner, mistakes made by Y. Taylor.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Aug 21, 2013 6:10:20 GMT -6
Hold on, DC.... Some how I missed feral's entire sequence of photos, and while yanking out those ten makes things look better, it is still way too inaccurate. First of all, the HQ-E-F contingent consisted of 88 men, GAC included. One man-- Dose-- was killed and his body seen about 500 yards east of Ford B. That leaves 87. Another, PVT William A. Brown (F), was killed when he lost control of his horse, it bolted down the bluffs and across Ford B. His body was found in the village after the battle. 86. Marc Kellogg's body was discovered some distance between Ford D and the flats near Cemetery Ridge. 85. Six bodies were discovered on Cemetery Ridge, down aways. 79. Five accounts specifically claim 28 bodies in Deep Ravine. Some said 30; others said a bunch; but five used the number 28, leading me to between they actually counted the bodies. 51. McDougall said there were only a few bodies between the deep gully and where Custer lay. He was sure there were less than 12 and might not have been more than 6. LT Thompson said only 9 – 10 men lay between Custer and the gully. One of them had to be Boyer. This is considered the South Skirmish Line (SSL). Compromise... average it out... nine men. 42. Ten men from the C-I-L commands were identified in the HQ-E-F sector, all ten considered refugees not assigned to other units. There may have been more, but since there was no ID'ing, go with ten. 52. GAC and seven others were found at the top and a little below the peak of the hill, say six to ten feet from the memorial's edge. Boston Custer and Autie Reed were found about 100 yards below GAC. That may be far enough down the slope to qualify for McDougall's and Thompson's claims, but since both knew the two and neither mentioned them by name, we can assume those relatives were part of those considered dying on "LSH." Dr. Lord lay about 20 feet southeast of Custer on side of the hill. Still considered LSH? F Company's John Briody was found near the Deep Ravine head cut, a considerable distance-- 50 yards or more-- closer to the river than today's head cut. 51. Markers 29-32 are located in Cemetery Ravine, just off the slopes of the SSL. 47. Another five or so were reported to have made a break for it, probably dying on the upper west side of Battle Ridge. 42 or thereabouts? The question now comes in defining the limits of LSH and are those limits physically defined by Boston and Harry Reed? By the way, I really like feral's graphics. Best wishes, Fred. Sorry about this post. This thing has been eating at me: why my numbers didn't total 42. I forgot one name and that skewed things somewhat. I made the correction in the quoted area above-- bold italics and larger font-- and I adjusted all the totals accordingly. That should account for the 42 bodies reported in the LSH environs. Best wishes, Fred.
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