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Post by herosrest on Jul 20, 2012 4:19:29 GMT -6
If 8 actually is interpretted as the place Martin returned from, the approximate location is near Reno Hill ~ Which is obviously and quite blatantly mistaken. This is the chaos that infests study of the battle. Martini could not have left from 8 actual ~ it is a label to thr line pointing to Ford B.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 20, 2012 6:25:50 GMT -6
If in the future, herosrest, you conclude that you are acceptably smart enough and learned enough to discuss this with someone, just visit your last posts and look at this map, carefully hidden on the page called "Map Gallery" on this message board. lbha.org/images/mapA.jpgFurther, at the RCOI, Martin testified he could not see the river from where he left Custer, precluding Ford B or any Ford. Page 350.
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Post by montrose on Jul 20, 2012 6:29:27 GMT -6
Umm, no. Geoffrey Lambert was widely respected in the community.
He got a few haters after he retired, when he campaigned for the Democrats, and our present commander in chief.
Lambert is a goodfella.
Fuller is one of his peers. Fuller's issue was a zipper problem. Spent his career sleeping with the wives of his subordinates,. Also had issues with using government money for personal benefit. Outside of being a serial adulterer, thief, and liar, Leslie was a decent general. But a despicable human being.
This is the challenge of the 1876 Army. We can pretend that character does not atter. But the officers and enlisted men knew the character of their appointed leaders.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 20, 2012 7:27:09 GMT -6
If 8 actually is interpretted as the place Martin returned from, the approximate location is near Reno Hill ~ Which is obviously and quite blatantly mistaken. This is the chaos that infests study of the battle. Martini could not have left from 8 actual ~ it is a label to thr line pointing to Ford B. He would have left somewhere near the head of Cedar Coulée in my opinion and not from from anywhere near Ford B. How much time do you think it takes to ride from Ford B as compared with Cedar Coulée and arrive at Reno Creek where he met Benteen? We rode this year the reverse and looked at possible Custer routes. We rode from Reno Creek up to the bluffs and down SSR to MTC. From there we rode across MTC to East, Nye, etc than along the eastern boundary of Custer Battlefield. The view of Keogh's markers from that direction shows excellent terrain for an ambush. It could hold even more than it appears from the road or walking down to the markers. Curious what times you think it would take and the distance from Ford B. We had my trusty GPS on this trip. AZ Ranger
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Post by bc on Jul 20, 2012 8:25:52 GMT -6
Umm, no. Geoffrey Lambert was widely respected in the community. He got a few haters after he retired, when he campaigned for the Democrats, and our present commander in chief. Lambert is a goodfella. I've met him a few times. Seemed like a good fella as well to me. His hometown is just a few miles from here and he has come back a few times to speak for the Legion. I bought his book at a book signing here. A special operation type scenario which he says is fiction. The book is around here somewhere. He spoke after once after a very cold Veterans Day parade and ceremony. He and I were the only ones in berets, different colors of course. After some of Dubya's screwups, I don't get too concerned about anyone's politics. bc
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 10:57:51 GMT -6
Martin‘s 8 is at the end of a pencil line which leads directly from Ford B to Reno Hill. Martin left from the ford atea to carry the message to Benteen. His testimony is entirely consiztent with the route indicated. Martin showed where he rode back from. Ford B. HR..I posted Martinis testimony at the RCOI (Reply#60) and it has nothing to do with ford B. He said he was on a ridge when he got the message. On Maguires map it was pointed out to you by both Plainsman and myself that the number 8 (Where Martini said he got the message) is no where near ford B. It is probably hill 3411. Why do you keep insisting that it was ford B, when by his testimony and the location on the map it is clear that Martini was not at ford B. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 11:22:35 GMT -6
Custer's order to Benteen was a 'You come to me" order. This order was written on the bluffs. So there is NO possible way Custer intended Benteen to enter the valley.For that order to have meant anything but COME TO ME, there would have had to have been a positive order to Benteen from Custer prior to Benteen moving off to the west.Doth mine eyes behold a sea change? And not a peep from the pro Benteen lobby? Well well well after so much fluff and feathers there it is in all it's glory from the board's ranking officers. Radar, fellow company clerk we can rest in peace. Richard, As a member of the Benteen crowd why would I have any objection to this. I agree completley that when Custer sent that message to Benteen that it meant to come to him, and I have said just that in previous posts. Be Well Dan
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Post by ulan on Jul 20, 2012 11:52:10 GMT -6
No way, he ordered Benteen back to the party, but not to his(Custer´s) own location. To read the order like this is some kind of over-interpretation.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 20, 2012 12:19:58 GMT -6
I agree with Ulan. Custer told Benteen to get the train and 'come on', which I'd suggest means no more than bring it forward for everyone's benefit as we're about to commit to combat with a big village. It still strikes me as more of an exhortation (Hot damn! We got 'em!) to join the proceedings.
He didn't inform of Reno's chore, he gave no location or indication of what he was going to do. Everyone back then understood that in the delay of communication things change and you have to interpret specifics. I suspect it meant no more than to bring the train safely forward to where we can all benefit while we await developments. He could in no way have expected Benteen to rush forward while responsible for the packs.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 20, 2012 12:21:56 GMT -6
Fred—
Big party tonight. Come on!
George
So whose place does Fred go to?
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Post by ulan on Jul 20, 2012 12:32:53 GMT -6
Fred— Big party tonight. Come on! George So whose place does Fred go to? Yes, and bring packs!
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 13:04:25 GMT -6
No way, he ordered Benteen back to the party, but not to his(Custer´s) own location. To read the order like this is some kind of over-interpretation. Ulan, Unlike many of the actions we discuss where we can bring in facts, evidence etc, this one we cant. This is purely a matter of opinion. You and Dark Cloud and Im sure others are of the opinion that the note meant just come to the area, I feel the opposite, that Custer wanted Benteen to come to him. There are those (mostly in the other forum) that scream bloody murder that Benteen disobeyed orders, he was supposed to go to Custer Other noted authors that believe Custer put Keogh in that position to cover Benteens arrival(I dont, it doesnt make sense) why would he do that if he didnt expect Benteen to come to him No gentlemen, I believe if Custer just wanted Benteen in the area he would have said so. Something like "Benteen come quick Reno heavily engaged" As I said this is purely a matter of interpretation. For me if I were to get a message from my commander to come quick without any more specifics I would interprert that to mean come to him. Be Well Dan
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Post by ulan on Jul 20, 2012 13:16:23 GMT -6
For me if I were the commander I would give exactly orders what my men have to do. I would leave no room for interpretation because i have the responsibility for hundrets of men.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 20, 2012 13:18:55 GMT -6
Dan: I agree. In the absence of anything to the contrary, come to Custer (Perhaps not his specific location but in the vacinity) is the only way that note can be interpreted in my view. The fact that it requires interpretation and the speculation that follows is an indictment of the note itself, and by extention the poor training that would allow this type of verbal or written abortion to pass for military communication in this or any other era.
DC, Ulan, and Plainsman also have a good point that the note portrays no sense of urgency or immediate danger. It very well could have been an invitation to a post victory Bar B Q for all we know. Somebody bring the hamburgers. Who, What, When, Where, How, and Why. Fit those words into the note and you will see how very poor it is.
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Post by benteen on Jul 20, 2012 13:29:58 GMT -6
For me if I were the commander I would give exactly orders what my men have to do. I would leave no room for interpretation because i have the responsibility for hundrets of men. Ulan....I agree with you. However we cant discuss what he should have written only what he did. Be Well Dan
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