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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 17:32:44 GMT -6
I think in my last post I mentioned that "dawdled" (quotation marks used there as well) was someone else's word. If I used it myself I would have to plead quilty to putting some onus on Benteen and that I had meant it. I did not and do not. I simply don't know.
I don't come here as a Custer fan. Far from it. I have spent most of my adult life despising the man. But the more I read about LBH the more my judgment becomes somewhat tempered. I have no idea where that will end up. I may decide to despise him still. I don't think he will care one way or the other.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 10, 2012 17:48:25 GMT -6
Despising the man is a step in the wrong direction in my view. That will get you nowhere. Place all of the available evidence before you, divorce it from personality, and see where it leads you. If you had said you loved him, or despised/loved Benteen/Reno or any of he others I would be saying the same thing. It leads to nothing productive and skews your view of things no matter if you realize it or not. Show no passion for personailty. Show it for the subject.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 10, 2012 17:58:20 GMT -6
The problem in Custerland is that people ID with participants to the extent that a reasonable hesitation about the actual participant is contrived as an insult to the modern poster/re-enacter/basket case. There are those who devote their lives to glurge about Keogh, Custer, others.
AZ and Zekesgirl have ridden Benteen's scout and found it to be reliably described by those who were with him. It's godawful ground. His horses had only been watered early the day previous, because upper Rosebud was too alkaline for them to drink. The morass was clay and muddy, and there had to be organized watering, which would take time. You cannot gallop about in hot weather with no water and expect great results from your mounts.
Those who have not ridden the ground, and in fact have given indications they've never even seen it, are the ones who think Benteen dawdled. They think Reno was drunk, the 'only possible' excuse for his dismal failure to sacrifice his soldiers to no point and, rather, keep the 7th whole, minus those wrung through the wringer of Custer Hill and environs.
As a rule, they've not been in combat and not served at all, like myself. They sense no lack of basis or standing within themselves for condemning the actions of soldiers and officers in combat. I don't find such people 'nice', but vile.
No Custerphile, I don't think Custer was guilty of more than being wrong on some 50-50 calls (as he'd see them). I also think he went down, wounded, didn't cede command, and the 5 companies ended where they did having arrived in two general groups on Custer Ridge with Keogh never informed what, exactly, had happened.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 18:09:12 GMT -6
Despising the man is a step in the wrong direction in my view. That will get you nowhere. Place all of the available evidence before you, divorce it from personality, and see where it leads you. If you had said you loved him, or despised/loved Benteen/Reno or any of he others I would be saying the same thing. It leads to nothing productive and skews your view of things no matter if you realize it or not. Show no passion for personailty. Show it for the subject. I agree. I'm at the stage of letting all my prior judgments on all of the participants fall away in the interests, hopefully, of a deeper understanding of these events. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone would do the same for each of us as well.
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Post by zekesgirl on Jul 10, 2012 18:53:27 GMT -6
Since DC brought up the alkaline water I thought I might throw in this little tidbit.
This year we rode the battlefield itself. Going to Reno's first crossing and back to when Custer "may" have watered his command. Anyway, by the time we got down to the Little Bi ghorn river at Reno's second crossing, the horses were hot and thirsty.
My horse would not drink the water from the river. It gives me an idea just HOW thirsty the horses were that watered at the morass.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 19:01:05 GMT -6
That's great information. Any time/distance info you could share?
There may have been all sorts of agricultural and other activity impacting on the LBH since 1876. Has anyone found comments about bad water from surviviors? Wounded men?
There are plenty of alkali lakes in my area than nothing drinks from or goes near so I am familiar with the phenomenon.
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Post by zekesgirl on Jul 10, 2012 19:20:48 GMT -6
Ranger was carrying his GPS, he may have some information ready to share. I just ride along for the thrill of it. Standing where Mike Madden was wounded, seeing the Keogh cluster from the east, actually experiencing the distances invovled. Standing by Hodgson's marker and looking up at Reno hill was pretty darn cool.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 19:31:34 GMT -6
I can imagine it was a powerful experience. I envy you that. Some people just don't "get it" when they stand on ground like that. Some do. Go figger. Thanks for chiming in!
From the morass to the Reno redoubt, how long did it take you?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 11, 2012 3:28:29 GMT -6
I cannot see what was wrong with Benteen watering his horses, it was a very hot day, they had also been moving over rough terrain for over two hours, if it was such a big deal about Benteen watering his mounts could the same be said of both Custer and Reno, they both watered there horses before they went into action.
Ian.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 11, 2012 6:23:52 GMT -6
Ian, I don't think anyone has suggested there was anything "wrong" about Benteen, or anyone else, watering their horses. It would have been wrong not to. That's what cavalrymen do as we all know.
With regard to the original premiss of this thread, I am now satisfied that no link-up between Benteen and Reno while Reno was still engaged on the west side of the river would have been possible. Times and distances just don't work in favor of such a supposition.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 11, 2012 7:11:37 GMT -6
PM, I don’t know if you are familiar with Greys Time Lines, some folks use them as a basis to work out various movement times for all of Custer’s Battalions, and of course there are some who either don’t agree with them or prefer to make their own time lines.
2:16: Benteen arrives on Reno Creek. 2:36: Benteen reaches the Morass and waters horses. 2:56: Benteen Battalion departs Morass. 4:30: Benteen Battalion arrives on Reno Hill.
Roundabout two and quarters hours for Benteen to reach Reno Creek and arrive at Reno Hill.
If you need a copy of Greys Time Lines I will PM them to you.
Ian.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 11, 2012 7:18:58 GMT -6
Ian, I would be grateful to receive them. Thanks! When does Grey say that Reno began his retreat to the bluffs?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 11, 2012 7:25:14 GMT -6
I will post them off now.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 11, 2012 7:41:32 GMT -6
Received. Thanks!
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Post by ulan on Jul 12, 2012 3:15:20 GMT -6
That is why i like this board! That argument that Benteen was not far away and he easy could connect to Custer in a half hour if he only gave the order to gallop, is some of the stupidest and all against that is allready said in this thread. But exactly that kind of argumentation is what most people believe when the watch stuff like this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLuPCWlUcMA&feature=relatedIt is just not fair to state yourself as an expert of the LBH battle and on the other hand you use dump bs like this to lead the mass of the viewer´s to the conviction that Benteen, or Reno, or anyone else was guilty but not Custer.
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