walsh
Full Member
Posts: 108
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Post by walsh on Jul 9, 2012 15:49:26 GMT -6
The current rules of engagement in Afghanistan are extreme all in the name of curbing civilian casualties. I hate this liberal way of fighting wars. If your going to go to war, do it right. War isn't a good thing but to think you can prevent civilian deaths when your enemy isn't even uniformed and people walk around and randomly detonate themselves is odd. World War 2 had plenty of civilian casualties. Just think of all the bombing raids targeted against civilian populations. If civilians are supporting the war effort, than to me, they are fair targets.(unless they are being forced against their will)
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 9, 2012 15:54:51 GMT -6
Great. Enlist.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 10, 2012 3:21:13 GMT -6
I know it’s always gone on darkclound, mankind has never changed, but the point I am trying to make here is, no matter how much we change and develop, we always seem to revert to the cave man in us when wars are being fought, of course civilians are going to die there is nothing more certain, but how can people just randomly kill civilians that are just trying to survive while all hell is breaking loose, I don’t know how soldiers can kill little kids when the battle is over what good will it do, if anything it is going to fuel the fire of hatred against them, I don’t want to pull any countries names out of a hat here because I would be here all day typing them out, but humans even with all the education all the media and all the lessons we should have learned in the past, still revert to savages when placed in a position of power, it’s like ’’hey I got a gun look there is some unharmed people with kids lets shoot them’’, why because we can.
Plainsman, you make a good point over hatred and atrocities that went on in the past, but I cannot think that way, it’s just not me, hell if I held a grudge to every tribe or army that has raided or invaded our shore (the Jutes, Angles, Saxons, Romans, Normans, Vikings, not counting the French, Spanish and Germans from a later time) I would hate most of Europe, so I have removed the chip on my shoulder long ago, it’s just a pity some others have not done the same.
Walsh, Nato have gone into many conflicts with one arm tied behind their backs, I suppose it’s our way of fighting a clean noble war, and also showing the locals that we are the good guys, but still you are going to get civilian casualties, the only way you can resolve this is not go to war in the first place, but that’s not an issue when your hand is forced, warfare has change so much now, the AK-47 and Rocket Propelled Grenade has given the soldier/freedom fighter so much more power that he is lethal in an urban environment, just look at the Israelis when they last when into the Lebanon.
Ian.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 19:26:47 GMT -6
I think the "causes" of Wounded Knee were distrust, fear, and hatred. In about that order. On both sides. It's a site I have been to, and deeply affected by. Attachments:
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Post by elkslayer on Jul 10, 2012 19:57:54 GMT -6
...back to Wounded Knee. Why hasn't anyone mentioned the first hand account of Father Francis Craft? Just learned about him the other night.
Fr. Francis M. Craft, who was stabbed in the back during the battle but recovered and lived another thirty years, offered a different viewpoint "in a deposition submitted to the federal commission charged with investigating the tragic event": "There has been an effort to charge the soldiers with cruelty & slaughter, but it is a vile slander. They worked hard to stop the fight, & to save lives. After the battle, some of them had little Indian babies wrapped in their coats, carrying them off the field." Now, Father Craft lived with the Sioux for years. After being stabbed during the battle, he thought he might die and asked to be burried in the mass grave with the Sioux dead from the battle. So, this guy doesn't appear to have an agenda that would skew his eyewitness account. For me, Wounded Knee is turning into another Little Bighorn... Seems like agendas and political correctness has taken the place of cold, hard facts. Fascinating, but frustrating as hell. Sometime in the next few days, Wells and the Rev. Cook went to the hospital and took statements from the wounded Indians, among them Big Foot's brother, Frog; a visiting Oglala named Help Them; and a Ghost Dancer named Hehakawanyakapi. They said they were coming in voluntarily to the Pine Ridge Agency, that the troopers had treated them well, that they had no thought of fighting. But the medicine men had agitated the younger braves who still had rifles, and the first shot had come from their group. Then shots thundered in from all sides. Jim
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Post by plainsman on Jul 10, 2012 21:01:50 GMT -6
Welllll...
Did soldiers save babies from the battlefield? Evidently. Did they also shoot women and children? Most likely. Did young, angry braves pull Winchesters from under their blankets and kill soldiers with them. No doubt. Did the soldiers fire pretty much indiscriminately (in a circular formation!)? Very likely.
Nobody comes out of Wounded Knee either completely pure or totally evil.
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Post by starman on Jul 11, 2012 2:35:07 GMT -6
So, according to the good father, the soldiers worked hard to stop the fight? Is that why they chased women and children for almost two miles to kill them? And what happened to the mothers of "little Indian babies wrapped in their coats"?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 11, 2012 6:37:33 GMT -6
Who stabbed him? Why?
Hurt and observing a small area about him, his testimony is cramped, shall we say. Plainsman is likely right. To imply Father Craft is either a fraud or The Truth is silly.
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Post by elkslayer on Jul 11, 2012 19:55:16 GMT -6
According to Fr. Craft’s account of the Wounded Knee Massacre, Forsyth made a peaceful speech and asked the Lakota to surrender their arms. The Lakota denied that they had any. Forsyth sent soldiers amongst the Lakota to retrieve any arms they found. A medicine man began to pray and sing. Some of the Lakota men came forward, one by one to leave their arms, and when about twenty rifles were collected, a soldier spied rifles under blankets and cried out, “Look out, look at that,” followed by nervous laughter on both sides. Forsyth assured the Lakota that he would not take their arms by force even if he had ten years to wait. Then according to Fr. Craft, he walked among the Lakota calming them as best as he could as he passed out cigarettes. Craft further says that several Lakota men threw aside their blankets and actually raised their guns to companies B and K, and he identified many of the Lakota arms as repeating twelve-shot Winchester rifles. Craft says that he ran along the line of Lakota warriors and begged them to stop, at which the Lakota warriors laughed then lowered their arms, all but one. Craft identified the remaining Lakota rifleman as Black Fox, a deaf-mute, who was unable to understand the exchange between priest and warriors and who then fired off a round. Caught in the crossfire, Fr. Craft tried to give absolution to a dying cavalry soldier and was accidentally shot by him, a passing Lakota warrior tried to bring Craft to his feet but it looked to the soldiers as an attack on the priest and the dying soldier. The soldiers raised their weapons to fire on the Lakota who was assisting Craft, but Craft pushed the Lakota man down and interjected his body between the soldiers and the Lakota. A Lakota called Aimed-At-Him saw Craft push the Lakota down and he retaliated by stabbing the priest. No doubt women and children were killed. But, if you decide to start a fight with your family nearby, what would you expect to happen?
Jim
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Post by starman on Jul 12, 2012 12:39:31 GMT -6
Exactly my point. Indians never start a fight if their families are at risk. History is full of examples of warriors refusing to fight if their families are involved.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 12, 2012 12:50:03 GMT -6
There may have been some special conditions operating that day, the presence of the 7th being one of them. The Indians were very afraid, too, and the disarmament, despite Forsyth's soothing words, may have been seen by them as the prelude to what had happened to Sitting Bull— but this time en masse. There were also the ghost shirts that many wore under their outer garments, plus the oft-mentioned comment that the young men were armed under their blankets. Young men often react in ways that older heads have learned to avoid. Seeing one of their number man-handled as the soldiers tried to take his rifle, perhaps seeing his confusion due to his handicap, may have pushed them over the edge. There was probably a good bit of "We have nothing left to lose!" among them, too.
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Post by starman on Jul 12, 2012 13:06:46 GMT -6
I would be interested to know if there were any attempts to discover how many soldiers were killed by "friendly" fire. It would give an indication of haphazard or panicky shooting.
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Post by plainsman on Jul 12, 2012 13:28:19 GMT -6
If that's known, I wouldn't expect it to have been released.
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Post by elkslayer on Jul 12, 2012 18:45:28 GMT -6
I would be interested to know if there were any attempts to discover how many soldiers were killed by "friendly" fire. It would give an indication of haphazard or panicky shooting. I am betting quite a few... Saw some special on Wounded Knee which talked about the soldiers formation when the fighting started; just caught a minute or two. The deduced that due to the formation, the troops weren't there to massacre the Indians...basically said, if they missed their target, they had a really good chance of hitting their buddies. Jim
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Post by elkslayer on Jul 12, 2012 18:54:06 GMT -6
There may have been some special conditions operating that day, the presence of the 7th being one of them. Like everything else I have read, no one really knows if it is true or not, but here it goes... Read that the Indians recognized(guidons?) that the troops there were from the 7th Cav. They were very afraid since Little Bighorn had yet to be really avenged. Ya, and Forsyth's soothing words probably reminded them of how the Feds talked to them when setting up a new treaty.... Jim
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