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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2017 19:26:12 GMT -6
DucemusF.B. Fiske's 'Taming of the Sioux' adds some detail of Keogh's demise to the record, and some else besides. linkSince it is broadly held that no sabres were used by the cavalry, the ever present difficulty with loose translation and artistic prose raises from ire. Keogh was respected by the warriors because he wore a scapulary (think Batman). The women may not have left him alone. I understand that Keogh served with his friend, E.S. Curtis's father, during ACW. The mystery of one demise is offerd by Fiske. "We found a soldier sitting against the dead body of his horse. He was alive, but had been shot through the abdomen. He could speak a little Sioux, and he said — 'My friends, I am in a bad way, I wish you would take me to a tent.' We got off our horses and crowded around, and one of us spoke up, 'Why, he is my friend !' 'Yes,' he replied, I was at Standing Rock and at Fort Lincoln.' We got on our horses again, and two of us reached down and took him under the armpits and tried to lead him away, but he said, 'Oh, I can't walk, my legs hurt !' And then he dropped down and died.
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dgfred
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Post by dgfred on Jan 31, 2017 9:10:02 GMT -6
dgfred, I have read Capt Keogh fought in the Papal Army and was awarded a medal from the Pope. He wore it around his neck, when he was killed the warriors saw it and thought it bad medicine to mess with him. Dont know if it is true, but as good a reason as any. Be Well Dan Benteen you are on to something there. Indians by nature are very superstitious. I can buy the fact that Keough body was spared due to his necklace. Also I think GAC fought bravely and this was highly respected by the Indians. Was his body mutilated? I dont know but I think thewarriors who fought custer realized he was a brave man and could have very well not mutilated him for this. Indians by nature are very superstitious that is a fact. The 'fought bravely' was what I read somewhere of Keogh too. Would not a lot of men have had chains/neck-laces/etc? and a mighty welcome to the forum.
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Post by elkcharm on Jan 31, 2017 18:55:48 GMT -6
Benteen you are on to something there. Indians by nature are very superstitious. I can buy the fact that Keough body was spared due to his necklace. Also I think GAC fought bravely and this was highly respected by the Indians. Was his body mutilated? I dont know but I think thewarriors who fought custer realized he was a brave man and could have very well not mutilated him for this. Indians by nature are very superstitious that is a fact. The 'fought bravely' was what I read somewhere of Keogh too. Would not a lot of men have had chains/neck-laces/etc? and a mighty welcome to the forum. Aho!! Cant answer about alot of the men wearing jewlery. Why we are on superstition of the Indians. I have been told when some warriors came in contact with mentally disturbed people of any color they would leave them alone. Afraid of their medicine. Thabks to all for the warm welcome. If you have any questions regarding Plains Indian culture or habits I will try and answer. Aho (Appsalooke word for Thank you)
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Post by herosrest on Feb 1, 2017 9:38:40 GMT -6
Ducemus
In referece to Fiske's interview of Paints Brown, one of the Indian Police involved in Sitting Bull's fatal arrest, reference to Keogh wearing a Holy Vest, (Batman), makes some sense because of his military history. Hostiles examining his corpse would respect the 'Black Robe' (Scapulary) and its wearer - once it was discovered.
Shirt Wearers were important to tribal culture.
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dgfred
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Post by dgfred on Feb 1, 2017 15:48:29 GMT -6
So was it the 'cape' kind or a 'necklace' kind? I would understand the 'cape' kind as being a sort of shirt wearer.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 1, 2017 17:16:12 GMT -6
DucemusKeogh's Agnus Dei was most likely a locket. Keogh experts will be up on this. It was noted by Capt. Henry B. Freeman (7th Infantry) when he visited the battleground on 27th June, 1876. He left it in place and Benteen, I believe, then recovered it. An interesting point with this is that an account of this mission gave Crazy Horse Gully as the route taken by Company H on that mission. Thus CH gully is Deep Ravine or understanding of 1876 terrain feature naming is not understood today. Keogh's scapulary, referred to by Ogalala hostile Paints Brown, was a garment and one can assume that it was black in color. Free dictionary - 1. Roman Catholic Church a. A monk's sleeveless outer garment that hangs from the shoulders and sometimes has a cowl. b. A pair of pieces of cloth joined by shoulder bands and worn under clothing on the chest and back as a sacramental, sometimes entailing lay affiliation with a religious order. Within context, it is probably more Clint Eastwood than Pope Pious. He also carried a photograph of McDougall's sister?? I think it was - which was recovered later with blood stain. Taming of the Sioux.Henry B. FreemanISBN-10: 0891410600 ISBN-13: 978-0891410607 Freeman Map - linkThe Fiske account giving Paints Brown's account of the fight is controversial in some respects, as is comment by Freeman. Partisan battle politics mean that neither record is often quoted or developed. Freeman confirmed that 7th lost the regimental colours but didn't get published until 1976. Hostiles' taunted Reno with them and invited him to come and get them back.
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dgfred
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Post by dgfred on Feb 2, 2017 9:08:03 GMT -6
Dang... I ran out of 'likes' to give you. THANKS. Plus LIKE, LIKE and LIKE some more.
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Post by spottedwolf on Apr 14, 2017 4:55:17 GMT -6
There are many stories about Custer's body and why his body was not bothered or cut up as were others in his command. Firs off, Custer's body was cut but only only in one way, a finger was cut off. His body was left dressed the way he was dressed during the battle. Why was he not dismember as so many like his brother Tom and others? There are a lot of different stories but the one and only story why he was not bothered is this, Custer was considered a relative of the Sioux. He had, supposedly, a daughter by a Sioux and that was the only reason. The Sioux would not cut up a body of a relation. His body was recognized by the Sioux, even though this hair had been cut short before the battle, (he was not bald as many claim) but that he was wearing the same clothing he had worn in other battles with the Sioux. He was also know by two names by the Sioux, Yellow Hair and Child of the Morning Star as he had always attacked at the break of dawn. It should also be know that Custer's body bore two wounds, one a bullet hole in his chest and another in his left temple. Many say that the bullet wound to the temple was self inflicted, it seems more likely that he was shot by his brother Tom, who body was found near Custers and the wound to his chest, suffered before the demise of his command, was received as he tried to cross the Medicine river into the Indian camp by an Sioux by the name of Joseph White Bull, a relative of Sitting Bull.
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Post by edavids on Apr 14, 2017 8:20:30 GMT -6
Good points but I believe he was found stripped naked.
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lens
New Member
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Post by lens on Apr 14, 2017 9:05:09 GMT -6
There are many stories about Custer's body and why his body was not bothered or cut up as were others in his command. Firs off, Custer's body was cut but only only in one way, a finger was cut off. His body was left dressed the way he was dressed during the battle. Why was he not dismember as so many like his brother Tom and others? There are a lot of different stories but the one and only story why he was not bothered is this, Custer was considered a relative of the Sioux. He had, supposedly, a daughter by a Sioux and that was the only reason. The Sioux would not cut up a body of a relation. His body was recognized by the Sioux, even though this hair had been cut short before the battle, (he was not bald as many claim) but that he was wearing the same clothing he had worn in other battles with the Sioux. He was also know by two names by the Sioux, Yellow Hair and Child of the Morning Star as he had always attacked at the break of dawn. It should also be know that Custer's body bore two wounds, one a bullet hole in his chest and another in his left temple. Many say that the bullet wound to the temple was self inflicted, it seems more likely that he was shot by his brother Tom, who body was found near Custers and the wound to his chest, suffered before the demise of his command, was received as he tried to cross the Medicine river into the Indian camp by an Sioux by the name of Joseph White Bull, a relative of Sitting Bull. It was supposedly a Cheyenne woman he fathered a daughter with but it has also been said he was sterile secondary to a venereal disease acquired while at West Point. There are many who believe that he was cut up but it was covered up to protect Libby. No one will ever know.
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 14, 2017 12:28:19 GMT -6
You have to realize that Custer, along with the rest of his command had been lying around in the heat & sun for two days. Along with scavengers & insects most of the bodies would have been in terrible condition, let along from battle wounds and any disfigurement from Indians.
It is my belief that Custer was just as bad off as the rest of his command but it was covered up. Not only was it horrible that Custer was dead but he had been found in a state of "who-knows-what" and for the country to find that out would have been to much to bear, especially for Libbie.
The stories from the Cheyenne may have some credence but even if they didn't molest him that didn't mean the Sioux would have left him alone, in addition to the sun, heat, insects and scavengers.
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Post by dave on Apr 14, 2017 16:56:26 GMT -6
Were the Sioux not inspecting the dead as soon as the last shot was fired on the 25th? Why would they wait till the next day to count coup and strip the corpses when they could attend to the fresh kills? I somehow doubt the majority of the younger braves knew Custer by sight and suspect they did the same to GAC as the others.
The dark blotted bodies were found on the the 27th by the soldiers and in those times the officers certainly received better treatment than the enlisted plus Custer received special care. I agree that they did their best to shield Libbie by claiming he was untouched and reposing peacefully.
Just one geezers suppositions. Regards Dave
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 17, 2017 10:46:27 GMT -6
Were the Sioux not inspecting the dead as soon as the last shot was fired on the 25th? Why would they wait till the next day to count coup and strip the corpses when they could attend to the fresh kills? I somehow doubt the majority of the younger braves knew Custer by sight and suspect they did the same to GAC as the others. The dark blotted bodies were found on the the 27th by the soldiers and in those times the officers certainly received better treatment than the enlisted plus Custer received special care. I agree that they did their best to shield Libbie by claiming he was untouched and reposing peacefully. Just one geezers suppositions. Regards Dave Where did you get the info about "the next day"? Immediately after the battle Indians were all over the battlefield stripping soldiers of uniforms, guns, bullets, boots, and anything else of value or use. Many Cheyenne who had experience and knowledge of the Custers (Tom & George) while on the reservations may have recoginized them after the battle. That's true for many others, especially Scouts like Isaih Dorman, Bloody Knife and Mitch Boyer who were well known among the Indians in the village. Fred Girard was said to have had a bounty on his head by Sitting Bull but escaped to live another day. Billy Jackson was well known among the Indians but survived. The Indians didn't know who was attacking them but once the battle was over and Indians were all over the battlefield they may have recognized soldiers and scouts and spared some but inflicted horrible disfigurement to those who either betrayed them or came to kill them.
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Post by dave on Apr 17, 2017 16:00:02 GMT -6
"Where did you get the info about "the next day"?" I speculated that the Indians would have immediately stripped the bodies and counted coup as soon as the killing stopped. Evidently we are not connecting as I agree with you.
As to the hostiles recognizing Custer and others I do not know but I did not say they would or could not. I wrote the soldiers would have problems when seeing the bodies on the 27th after 2 days laying exposed to the elements and wildlife. Regards Dave
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Post by crzhrs on Apr 18, 2017 8:16:33 GMT -6
OK . . . I guess we got a little mixed up.
As far as recognizing bodies, the Indians would have been right there after the battle so if any Indians did recognize someone it would have been easy unlike the soldiers coming to the battlefield two days after when the bodies would have been exposed to the elements, insects, scavengers, battle wounds, & disfigurement.
Apparently some soldiers were very difficult to recognize.
You may want to read "A Scene of Sickening, Ghastly Horror" by Francis Tauntan giving details of what the battlefield and condition of the soldiers were like.
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