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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 12, 2012 16:42:47 GMT -6
I stand corrected. Benteen is quoted as saying that. My apology to herosrest for that.
It would, however, indicate that the two messengers arrived together and gave him no new instructions, since that is what he was told at the outset when he turned left. The story elsewhere is that they arrived to remove the specificity of the original orders and to continue. Ah, newspapers.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 12, 2012 17:06:36 GMT -6
I stand corrected. Benteen is quoted as saying that. My apology to herosrest for that. It would, however, indicate that the two messengers arrived together and gave him no new instructions, since that is what he was told at the outset when he turned left. The story elsewhere is that they arrived to remove the specificity of the original orders and to continue. Ah, newspapers. The two messengers arrived separately as hsis RCOI testimony confirms. His statement to the newspaper is a summary and his wording is misleading. As you say, newspapers. We are lucky that Murdoch was not around then.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 12, 2012 17:52:58 GMT -6
I'm cleverly trying to insert the point that the newspaper added the 'discretion' phrase, since that's assumed in the US Army and would not need to be repeated, nor was it in any other version, and its boilerplate filler.
Did I succeed? Huh? Did I? Huh?
Well, bite me, then..........
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 7:39:39 GMT -6
Now I am confused. Seems to me that Benteen was sent to a line of bluffs and then told by messengers to continue as I recall from testimony. Is the article written by Benteen or a reporter? I thought at first Benteen had discretion and then his orders were modified to continue on "Ad Infinutum".
AZ Ranger
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 13, 2012 7:45:55 GMT -6
Suspect it's the reporter conflating what Benteen actually said, given it makes no sense of itself and doesn't reflect what Benteen said and wrote later.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 7:53:31 GMT -6
HS believes that Benteen crossed the LBH and was to the left of Reno in the valley is what I think.
As far as the times Reno did not write his report in a vacuum and used others for information supplied. His times are not his own except for one I believe.
I have to prepare reports of activities and use the information from other officers. Although it is my official report and believed to be correct the accuracy depends on what the officers give me and not my own observations alone.
The times are exactly that type of introduced opportunities for error.
Benteen states he used Wallace's times and has no independent source of time that he recorded.
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Post by herosrest on Jun 13, 2012 8:06:05 GMT -6
What is most useful is Benteen's confirmation that he rode Long Otter Creek. By his admission, he was there. Where, there, is a different discussion to not being there. Benteen reached and rode along Long Otter Creek or coulee.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 8:18:21 GMT -6
HS question:
Did it therefore take Reno from 11am until the 2:30pm stated by Wallace, to travel from a deserted village to Ford A?
Walace's answer
A. After Capt. Benteen started to the left, Gen. Custer and major Reno moved down this little stream, one on the right and the other on the left bank. They were moving from 100 to 300 yards apart owing to the nature of the ground. After going ten or twelve miles Major Reno was called across to the same side of the stream on which Gen. Custer was moving. The two battalions then moved along parallel to each other for some distance further. We passed a teepee which had some dead bodies in (it), and soon after passing that the Adjutant came to Major Reno and said that the Indians were about two miles and a half ahead, and Major Reno was ordered forward as fast as he could go and to charge them and the others would support him.
HS left out the 10 to 12 miles
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 8:35:47 GMT -6
Whether accurate or not Wallace states in his answer to a question:
Q. How do you fix that time?
A. I remember looking at my watch when Gen. Custer brought Major Reno’s battalion on the same side of the little stream with him. As we crossed that little stream I took out my watch and looked at it. That was before we had the order to move forward an charge, and it was then 2 o'clock; and estimating the distance we passed over, I would say it was after half past 2 when the fight commenced.
Not sure HS how you are using Wallace's time since he has Reno being called by Custer at 2 and then engaging around 2:30 PM.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 8:41:55 GMT -6
What is most useful is Benteen's confirmation that he rode Long Otter Creek. By his admission, he was there. Where, there, is a different discussion to not being there. Benteen reached and rode along Long Otter Creek or coulee. I don't believe that to be true. Benteen had no idea of any named waterway. He rode down No name and not Otter creek as it currently is named on maps. He met Martin in Reno Creek not Otter Creek. The point where Benteen turned was verified by Gibson on a map and they turned before reaching Otter Creek. So you really believe that Benteen crossed the LBH and moved down the valley to the left of Reno? AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 13, 2012 8:54:09 GMT -6
HS
Where do you think Benteen met Kanipe?
Where do you think Benteen met Martin?
Where is the morass that Benteen was at when the pack train came up?
AZ Ranger
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 13, 2012 9:04:58 GMT -6
I'm cleverly trying to insert the point that the newspaper added the 'discretion' phrase, since that's assumed in the US Army and would not need to be repeated, nor was it in any other version, and its boilerplate filler. Did I succeed? Huh? Did I? Huh? Well, bite me, then.......... The Benteen statement was tied in with one given by Reno on the same date to that newspaper, so it appears that in both cases the wording used is their own, though that cannot be verified. If, as seems the case, Benteen did use the word 'discretion,' it would fit more with what his original verbal orders were from Custer than the later messages brought to him. The prima facie evidence suggests that Benteen was very enthusiastic when he set off to the left, probably because Custer had left things to the Captain's judgement and discretion, but Benteen became disenchanted when that leeway was curtailed by the subsequent orders brought to him.
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Post by "Hunk" Papa on Jun 13, 2012 9:06:51 GMT -6
Not sure HS how you are using Wallace's time since he has Reno being called by Custer at 2 and then engaging around 2:30 PM. Neither is he!
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Post by herosrest on Jun 14, 2012 4:31:34 GMT -6
I shall consider matters, as you feel strongly about Benteen's Bluffs, but Wallace misled at Chicago, about what happened at Little Big Horn - and the confusion continues. The experts were and are confused - not me.
Are you suggesting that Benteen was in two places at once, that he went through Officer's call and did not comprehend that an attack was taking place, by his regiment, upon a village, in a valley. The same valley he was sent looking for.
I believe there may be an ignore facility, use it. Thank you so very, much gentlemen. T'was a pleasure. Your fired ;D
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jun 14, 2012 7:04:18 GMT -6
HS if you believe that Custer knew where the village was located and that it was the only location for Indians to be found than Custer would be foolish to send Benteen in the direction he was sent. Custer took the easiest route by far but it is hindsight and not what Custer thought at the time when he sent Benteen.
You are the one having Benteen in two places, You have him on Otter Creek and crossing the LBH upstream of Reno's crossing and moving down the valley. Is that right?
The statements of the participants have Benteen arriving in Reno Creek within view of the lead of the pack train and running into Kanipe and Martin. He can't be there and Otter Creek at the same time.
AZ Ranger
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