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Post by Dark Cloud on May 17, 2012 18:16:38 GMT -6
I don't recall that, and what you've quoted here is saying Benteen wanted to defend the depression between Weir and Sharpshooters, and I don't recall that either and cannot imagine how anyone would choose that. Benteen did want to delay the Indians and choose a better place to fight them, but that is a long way from choosing Weir Point to defend. Where is Benteen quoted as saying - or anyone quoted as saying - they wanted to defend Weir Point?
Didn't Benteen say 'this is a hell of a place to fight Indians' and take them south?
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Post by fred on May 17, 2012 22:32:52 GMT -6
... what you've quoted here is saying Benteen wanted to defend the depression between Weir and Sharpshooters, and I don't recall that either and cannot imagine how anyone would choose that. Well, it is even weirder than that! Notice my brackets.... "Sharpshooters'" or "Luce." Unclear which. SSR makes no sense, because he would be talking about defending Cedar Coulee and that's ridiculous. If he was referring to Luce, then he wanted to defend MTC! I can understand that to a small extent-- a delaying action, catching them in the open as they crossed the ridge-- but it is an impossible area to defend... without a full division! So I don't know. He's not... as I said (I think) specifically. I think someone-- again, I don't recall who-- thought they should defend Weir, but I cannot be positive. I recall this... but do not have it in my notes. Looks like I am going to have to re-read the RCOI and do a little up-dating. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on May 18, 2012 1:04:54 GMT -6
Dark Cloud
Benteen wanted to defend Weir Point? Source? That is not what Ian posted. What Ian posted was Capt. Benteen wanted to defend the area around Weir Peaks,
A "I stand corrected" will do fine
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 18, 2012 5:34:31 GMT -6
Benteen did not want to defend the area around Weir Point. He wanted to slow down the advancing Indians while they scoped out an actual place to defend, taking advantage of the high ground one supposes, as he rather clearly says. Reno, correctly it seems, thought it better to spend the time getting what became Reno Hill organized as a better defensive spot, and Benteen says he agreed. At no point was Weir or the area around it, considered a fit defensive position for them.
S
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Post by fred on May 18, 2012 5:59:18 GMT -6
DC,
What the hell are you doing up so early?
I thought I was the only one wandering the halls of Insomniaville... must be the system ridding itself of anesthesia.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 18, 2012 6:00:37 GMT -6
There must me a fine line on the notion of defend (to stay in one place and fight a prolonged battle) or to Defend (stay in one place to delay the enemy and retire to a proposed spot).
Fred, did Capt. Benteen say ‘’it’s a hell of a place to fight Indians’’ to Capt Weir ?.
Ian.
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Post by wild on May 18, 2012 6:08:55 GMT -6
You wanted a source for the defence of Weir Point. Weir point was not at issue. You mistakenly thought it was. A slip,no big deal.All that is required is a nod in the direction of the poster Ian.
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Post by wild on May 18, 2012 6:21:58 GMT -6
Come on DC you kicked this man up and down the board.Do the right thing.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 18, 2012 6:23:06 GMT -6
Hi Richard, surprisingly the episode on Weir point did not last that long (according to grey):
5:35: Benteen arrives on Weir Point with Companies H, K, and M. 5:50: Benteen and Weir pull off Weir Point and begin move back to Reno Hill. Company K acts as rear-guard.
15 minutes in fact, 15 minutes to place Companies on various land marks and fire at the warriors coming towards them, I bet there saddles were still warm when the order came to withdraw.
Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 18, 2012 6:30:41 GMT -6
On page 325 of Gray's 2nd book, quotes from several people that Benteen did not want to defend Weir Peaks or the "area around." If anyone has been there, the notion is absurd, requiring no military training. Being high up with no cover surrounded by plenty of cover for the enemy is a bad position.
Page 361 of the RCOI confirms.
Benteen did not suggest defending the area, but put out a line to slow the Indian approach while a site to defend was located. If you tell someone to cover your retreat, or delay your need to retreat briefly, they are not defending that area, which implies the area is the object to be defended, when in fact it's the rest of the men retreating. They chose to defend and defended Reno Hill.
wild and yantaylor have difficulty with this. As with so much.
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Post by wild on May 18, 2012 7:04:17 GMT -6
DC Long ago when I first started posting on this subject It was on the AAO Board.You wrote a piece on the real casualities of war.It was superb and I said so.There was a time when one could believe that you were the genuine article.You had a great slant on humanity and the ability to express your philosophy.A great raconteur. I recently received a message from Fred.A message of support.It was sent from his cell phone.And I was thinking where was he that he was using his phone to send me messages.A surgery.a doctors waiting room?Me?I'v never agreed with him about the LBH.I was the enemy.But it is the measure of his decency.Now he thinks highly of you so there must be something other there than the Hyde like character you have become. Do the right thing and you have the moral high ground again. Anything less than that and you might as well join the wafflers on the other site. Best Wishes
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Post by Dark Cloud on May 18, 2012 7:45:00 GMT -6
Your opinion is valueless, wild. And while you continue to try and crawl into the laps of others for protection, you're not one of them, and there is no plural beyond participants on this board that unites you to them.
I invite people to re-read our posts, yours in particular. You do not, because you know what they contain.
To the particulars, Benteen did not propose defending Weir Point or the area around it. yantaylor is wrong, and there is nothing to support it. You are wrong for pretending he is correct. It's that simple. If Fred pretended that was the case, he also would be wrong.
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2012 7:52:16 GMT -6
And to think I passed up the opportunity to have a root canal to post this.
Technically everything the 7th Cavalry did from the time they stopped or where stopped by what they saw to the north, and decided to proceed no further was a defense. It took the form of an initial depoyment, then a withdrawl, leaving a detachment left in contact, with the intention of taking up stronger defensive positions further south.
While this action has the appearances of a delay with the DLIC falling back by bounds, I think it must be looked at in its full context. The period of delay was finite intended only to cover a short distance retrograde, and allow minimal time to set up a perimeter.
I think these events are most similar to the elastic defense circa 1970 NATO.
So everyone is correct - there is no argument - there is nothing to argue about.
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Post by Yan Taylor on May 18, 2012 7:57:32 GMT -6
Hi Chuck.
Page 261 of the RCOI
Capt. Benteen: We had not been more than 2 or 3 minutes at the high point before the gorge was filled with Indians rushing towards us, we then fell back to where we were corralled.
I was for halting before we got there so as to check the Indians and to select. A better place when we had ample time.
(could this place be somewhere around this area, he didn’t say anything about Reno Hill)
Page 362 of the RCOI
Capt. Benteen: I recommended a halt in order to check those Indians and hunt for a better place to go afterwards.
(I suppose a halt can mean defend an area for a short time to stop the enemy in its tracks).
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on May 18, 2012 8:07:32 GMT -6
Ian: I think it would be correct to say that a defense was conducted over every bit of ground from Weir Point back to Reno Hill. The fact that Reno Hill became the ultimate, and intended defensive area does not mean that a defense was conducted there exclusive to all other areas. But for the defensive operations that started at Weir Peak and went south there would not be a Reno Hill. It is all in initiation of defense - flow of defense - culmination of defense.
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