|
Post by Yan Taylor on May 15, 2012 14:52:16 GMT -6
I am sorry for this Diane, but the Wallace thread still had legs, so I don’t care what some twit who got out of his bed the wrong side this morning has to say, now let’s get on and finish our thread, if we lie down and do nothing the tea might have well stayed on board the three ships in Boston Harbour.
Now Richard, the Benteen courier thing you mentioned, if Benteen sent out a courier from Reno Hill, what would it achieve, if he got there and his route was blocked by Indians there could be no message for Custer, now if he did get through to Calhoun and Custer had already left, still the message would not get to Custer, so I think if a messenger had to be sent it should be before Benteen got to Reno hill, but before Benteen got to Reno, he had no real idea of how grave the situation was.
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on May 15, 2012 15:19:05 GMT -6
Ian: Then what you are saying is a Roger-Wilco message, one intended to assure Custer his message was received, understood, and in the process of being complied with. Under those circumstance he would definately owe Custer an update as he came upon Reno. This update would be his responsability, and while Reno may object for perhaps going over his head he still had a moral imperative that superceded in my view protocols.
Of course the intention and act of sending that message does not mean the messenger would get through, or that it would have any impact on events.
I think that is more in line with Richard's views, but I believe that this slight change in circumstance deserves a different response from what I have said before.
The real disconnect for me here is that Richard is a supporter of the quick, scattered battle, no more than half an hour. What I do not understand then is that if Richard's half hour battle is accurate (does not really matter it is accurate in Richard's mind) then what is all the heartburn with Benteen's actions. By the time Benteen would have sailed past Reno and reached Wier or Luce the battle would have been over and done with, leaving Benteen's battalion in one of those two places saying Whoooopsi. It is only the prolonged Custer battle that makes any sense if you wish to slip the middle digit to Benteen.
I appreciate your efforts in expressing the sentiment that it is time for us all to pull up our big boy pants, and ignore those that are excluded from our company.
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on May 15, 2012 16:02:39 GMT -6
It still strikes me that atop of Benteen doing nothing wrong, it's still impressive to me how he brought everybody back from the north on the same team and performing as well as they did. There could have been any number of breakdowns with Weir and/or Reno or the train or shooting thieves amongst the wounded and train, and despite the potential for infinite horror, he seems to have brought it together pretty well under Reno's nominal command.
That has always struck me as one of those examples of great leadership without any melodramatic incident that would sing in history. Everybody who experienced it knew, and also knew that without some great incident or single heroic achievement that the media would love, nobody not there would understand what was great about Benteen.
Since and despite my formal, prolonged, increasingly unhinged objections to movies weaving in and out of these threads, there was a review by Ebert of the Green Mile that I always thought was relevant. Michael Clarke Duncan, who played the convicted but innocent man electrocuted, was nominated for an Oscar and Ebert said his greatness in the role (true: he was really good) was part acting and part being, which made sense then and now.
That also makes sense for almost any leader in one's view: competence within the role and being the role and not seen as acting it, which inspires belief and mental attendance from those about him/her. Duncan had it in acting that role, and Benteen did in his.
Having said that, it occurs to me that may be one of the reasons Reno and Custer both had command issues Benteen did not. EVERYone thought Benteen was a good officer even if they disliked him. Lots of people thought Reno a bad officer without much specific evidence that compels in objectivity, and Custer was both adored and despised depending on incident. Through the years, the 'being' part of officer performance doesn't make it into the books because nobody today experienced being with Benteen. But read Godfrey and others about him. Even at several removes, his 'being' and competence was understood by soldiers.
|
|
|
Post by wild on May 15, 2012 16:55:53 GMT -6
I don't believe these guys were thinking of protocols,making judgement calls,command decisions.These guys by our standards were in a word crap. Not an officer among them thought one step beyond what was in their immediate front. Command and control was non existant.The culture in that benighted regiment allowed officers total free rain outside a face to face order. We even have Zulu introducing another ad hoc rank into the mix --a "nominal command".Sweet mother of devine mercy what the hell is a nominal command?"If the poo hits the fan you're the fall guy if the RCOI are handing out Kudos I'm the man"? Custer's performance was reflected in the performance of his subordinates.Benteen the pied piper[and that was all he was] was blessed that the wounded had not advanced further in his wake otherwise the command would have had to stand somewhere between Reno Hill and Weir Point.
Now Richard, the Benteen courier thing you mentioned, if Benteen sent out a courier from Reno Hill, what would it achieveIt's insurance.It covers all the probabilities if not possibilities. I'v said this a 100 times.The intell that a force equal in strenght to that of Custer's plus reserve ammo had withdrawn from the attack was vital tactical information.Information on the field of battle is everything. Regards
|
|
|
Post by Diane Merkel on May 15, 2012 19:00:31 GMT -6
I am sorry for this Diane, but the Wallace thread still had legs. . . . I understand totally, Ian. No apology necessary. Diane
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on May 15, 2012 22:37:31 GMT -6
Richard, I believe you have painted yourself into a corner. If these guys, all of these officers were not worth a bucket of spit, then it would seem shoddy performance was the order of the day. If they were only concerned with what was in their front. then why do you single out one as a culprit? If all were bad, then why was one the worst of the worst? You expect sterling performance from one, when you say that all of them were nothing but shinny tin plate. Seems to me this is something like saying they were all a bunch of two bit strippers in a back street dive, with dirty toilets in the rest rooms, yet you blame one among them for not being Gypsy Rose Lee. Somewhere along the line you have lost me.
|
|
|
Post by steve1956 on May 16, 2012 2:53:58 GMT -6
We even have Zulu introducing another ad hoc rank into the mix --a "nominal command".Sweet mother of devine mercy what the hell is a nominal command?"If the poo hits the fan you're the fall guy if the RCOI are handing out Kudos I'm the man"? Other points apart, I think "nominal command" is quite a good description of Reno during the whole hill episode..Yes,he was in command,but didn't exactly exercise it.......... Steve
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on May 16, 2012 3:59:46 GMT -6
Once Reno arrived on the bluffs/Reno hill, did he make any major command decisions?, I think he had not found his sea legs yet, his mind was not in gear, having seen his chief scouts head being split open and being chased by hundreds of Indians, he also heard the news that his friend 2nd Lt. Hodgson had not made it back, so he had been through the mill, but did he give out any orders which came off his own bat, this is the point I am trying to grasp:
Did Capt Benteen suggest the move to Weir peaks after Capt. Weir had left and was followed by D Coy?
Did Capt. Captain Benteen make the decision to retire from the peaks when there was nothing that could be done other then be cut off by warriors coming from the Custer fight?
And when back on Reno hill, which officer made the arrangements to defend the place, I mean defend by placing each Company in a position for all round defence (basically forming a perimeter with each Company defending a different area with good fields of fire), was it Maj. Reno or Capt. Benteen ?
I could be wrong here but if Reno did issue orders around this phase in the battle, Benteen must have had an input, maybe he said to Reno, Marcus I think it would be prudent to ’’do this try that’’ sort of influence, and Reno would say yes this is what we are going to do.
Richard/Chuck, what I meant was (sorry I rushed my opening post, I was a bit annoyed) if Benteen had sent a courier out from Reno hill (I am using Grey’s times here as a guide, I don’t have Fred’s time lines to hand) it would be around these times:
4:30: Benteen Battalion arrives on Reno Hill. 4:45: Left Wing and Headquarters Staff reach Ford D and sight non-combatants across the river.
That would mean that any courier that Benteen sent would have to cover the distance to Calhoun hill in under 15 minutes, now it took Trumpeter Martini 20 minutes to meet up with Benteen so say it took 20 minutes for a rider to report to Custer, that would mean that the rider got there too late, he would have to report to Capt. Keogh ask for Custer’s whereabouts and carry on to locate Custer further north, now if the rider caught up with Custer on his return from Ford D and delivered a massage saying ‘’Reno’s battalion is in bad shape, try and re-unite the command and wait for packs, be with you as fast as I can’’ Custer will be under the illusion that Benteen is not going to show up any time soon, that leaves Custer three decisions:
A / let’s all wait here and wait for Benteen, he could be some time so let’s hunker down (operation certain death).
B / let’s all go back to Calhoun hill and try and defend it and wait for Benteen to show later (operation brave last stand).
C / let’s all re-unite with Keogh and take the whole command back to Reno hill and abort the mission till re-enforced (operation lose face).
So if Benteen had sent a courier out these must be the likely scenarios (in my mind anyway).
Ian.
|
|
|
Post by wild on May 16, 2012 6:29:41 GMT -6
Nominal command is a nonsense.It's like being slightly pregnant. A system of nominal command is no system at all.It is confusion. Benteen being the 2 i/c did what a good 2i/c should do.Authority and responsibility rested with Reno.If he was content to allow Benteen organise the defense there's no problem no confusion.
You can do everything according to the book and still get it wrong.You can do everything wrong and still get it right.That is what happened here.The element of chance stalks the battle field smiling on some pissing on others.But you limit chance by doing what is right.
Richard, I believe you have painted yourself into a corner. If these guys, all of these officers were not worth a bucket of spit, then it would seem shoddy performance was the order of the day. If they were only concerned with what was in their front. then why do you single out one as a culprit? Colonel, I think the bold Oscar pontificated that consistancy is the sign of a boring mind.I came 180 on this character.[ask Zulu]I was attempting to fit him into a modern template.Unjust.And I quickly add that you guys were defending him with the same template.These plonkers were just bad soldiers. Benteen is fascinating because he is you or I arriving at the scene of an unfolding disaster.Though not a coward by any means he is Upham frozen on the stairs. Regards
|
|
|
Post by steve1956 on May 16, 2012 7:48:29 GMT -6
Nominal command is a nonsense.It's like being slightly pregnant. A system of nominal command is no system at all.It is confusion. Exactly............For whatever reason,at the time of Benteen's arrival,Reno has lost the plot....."Help me,I've lost half my command" is not the approved manner of delegation.........
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on May 16, 2012 7:52:05 GMT -6
Nominal Command - This is not open for discussion only comment yes or no: Which among you, regardless of the walk of life you have chosen has not been in a situation where your boss has given orders or direction that you question just for a moment in your mind, there is a pregnant pause as you look to his trusted number two, and with a slight, nearly un-noticable, nod says it's OK do it? That friends is the exercise of nominal command on the part of the boss. Occupation of position, without command presence.
|
|
|
Post by steve1956 on May 16, 2012 7:55:26 GMT -6
Nominal Command - This is not open for discussion only comment yes or no: Which among you, regardless of the walk of life you have chosen has not been in a situation where yiour boss has given orders or direction that you question just for a moment in your mind, there is a pregnant pause as you look to his trusted number two, and with a slight, nearly un-noticable, nod says it's OK do it? That friends is the exercise of nominal command on the part of the boss. Occupation of position, without command presence. Better put than I did,but that's what I was getting at......
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on May 16, 2012 8:12:10 GMT -6
Ian: I believe we were all a bit annoyed. Annoyed as I was this very morning with a rabbit in from the fields enjoying his breakfast at the expense of my flower bed. In this case I turned on the hose with the spray attachment and gave him a richly deserved shower. Now that rabbit may be back tomorrow, and he will get the same thing, until he learns that his own patch of grass is one hell of a lot healther for him than mine.
|
|
|
Post by wild on May 16, 2012 8:13:54 GMT -6
This is not open for discussion only comment yes or no:
I'll respect that but if you want to open it-----
|
|
|
Post by Dark Cloud on May 16, 2012 8:14:08 GMT -6
yantaylor, your questions are still answered in just about every book, but just read Reno and Benteen's RCOI testimony to discover when things were decided.
Again, people not combat vets have no standing to dis combat vets. They can discuss the opinions of others about those vets, but their own opinions have no meaning, much less equivalence to those who were there. Otherwise, feel free to stand up among combat vets and dis them to their face about variances from 'approved manner of delegation' in combat. The intent was expressed, understood, and acted upon. Problem?
After the general hilarity at your clueless pomposity dies down, they might take pity on you, but I'd doubt it.
|
|