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Post by fred on Apr 21, 2012 10:58:18 GMT -6
"FYI Hooray! Got the village, it's a big one, hustle up with train as fast as able, see you then. Great, eh?" Unsaid: 'you know what to do, guy. Love it when a plan comes together.' Nothing remotely frightening, much less indicative of what was to come. He had no clue at that time Martin was sent back. That's the way I see it. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Apr 21, 2012 11:03:47 GMT -6
If there was no system,no custom and practice in the US army of the day of reporting "mission accomplished" then Benteen is covered. If there was not a requirement to acknowledge orders then there was a screaming flaw in the command and control system. Further Benteen had insufficent information on which to base his decision to relinquish command of his battalion. I have a book beside me here--The 1864 FIELD ARTILLERY TACTICS.US War Department.It is a tome of 404 pages and it covers everything.Surely there must be reposing in some dusty archive it's equivalant--Field Communications? Until such time as that missal turns up we will be arguing the rights and wrongs of this till doomsday. Best Wishes
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Post by benteen on Apr 21, 2012 11:07:59 GMT -6
One of the interesting points about discussing the message is that we don't know what Custer's order actually was. It was Lt Cooke that wrote it. We will never know if that's what Custer said. Neither Custer or Benteen were idiots. I try to put myself in Benteens place. It says "Be Quick" but it also says not once but twice to "Bring Packs" There is no way he can be quick AND bring packs. He has just had Sgt Knipe yell "Hurra boys we got em " and Martini when asked about the Indians stated "They Skedaddling" In my way of thinking there is no indication that Custer is in any trouble. Then again ,as I previously stated, we will never know what Custer said, only what Lt Cooke wrote.
Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Apr 21, 2012 11:15:14 GMT -6
How does one distinguish an exhortation from an order? What status has an exhortation got? I recall one of our esteemed vets posting that if your CO asked how was your Christmas Tree you had better have fairy lights standing to attention.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 21, 2012 11:30:30 GMT -6
It's an order to be happy, we found the village, bring the packs asap. No time, locations, plans of future action, nothing.
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Post by wild on Apr 21, 2012 12:46:44 GMT -6
Benteen having been sent on a independent mission was by the order recalled and was now acting directly under Custer orders.The order was a recall not a direction.He no longer had licence to act as he saw fit but was required to report to Custer. The above predicated by the existence of a command and control system. Time and location were fluid and could not be precisely stated.
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Post by benteen on Apr 22, 2012 16:02:37 GMT -6
][i ]The order was a recall Richard, I agree with you that Custer was recalling Benteen, no problem with that. Where the difference in peoples opinions comes in is how fast should he have complied, there are two schools of thought 1.. Benteen should have raced to Custer but instead dawdled 2.. There was no indication that Custer was in any trouble and rather than burn out his horses racing to Custer for no apparent reason, he would yes, pick up the pace a bit, but keep the mounts as fresh as possible in case they were needed. He may have also felt that Custer wanted the packs more than Benteens battalion based on Cooks message. Needless to say I subscribe to #2 Be Well Dan
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Post by quincannon on Apr 22, 2012 16:45:54 GMT -6
Dan: I too think that your course of action #2 was the one in play. Be quick and bring packs is a wide disconnect. Where I am in disagreement with you is that I believe Custer wanted both the Benteen Battalion, and the packs. One must conclude then :Be quick" seems a mutually exclusive requirement from the "bring packs". What I think, can't possibly be certain, is that he saw "bring packs twice, once in the body of the message and one scripted post signature. That added bit of evidence may just be the deciding factor, taking Benteen's ordinary tactical judgment out of the equasion. Had he come on fast, leaving the packs in the rear to follow at some possibly hurried pace but still slow(er) he was wrong. He obeyed what he thought to be the intent of the message interpreting that the packs were important and the hurry was relative. Many judge him wrong for that too.
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Post by wild on Apr 22, 2012 16:55:38 GMT -6
Dan,Colonel Benteen took no action whatsoever in relation to the packs. Therefore it was the "unknowing"packs which dictated the speed of advance of Benteen.Always assuming Benteen gave a tinkers fart about the packs which I very much doubt. Regards
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Reddirt
Full Member
Life is But a Dream...
Posts: 208
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Post by Reddirt on Apr 22, 2012 17:47:36 GMT -6
Apparently Dark Cloud is under the impression that the three commands led by Custer, Reno, and Benteen were operating in a mystical vacuum of silence and, the three commands were operating on three different planets;a million miles apart! Can you just imagine a trail driven into the dry dust because of vegetation chomped down to the roots by thousands of Indian ponies and thousands of dragged lodge poles; Aha! A trail! How about the impression of hundreds of cavalry mounts, ridden in formation, pounding the ground by mounts weighing hundreds of pounds! By Jove, a trail Stay with me now! Imagine clouds of dust spiraling into the hot humid air as Indians dash away from the village (one group responding south towards Reno, another group west towards the pony heard, and the third group fleeing north toward perceived safety) while soldiers storm towards their prey;jumping Jehoshaphat! Signs of movement! In other words, physical movements of each command and the Indians were accompanied by natural phenomenon that served as red flags for all to see. lastly, Custer's adjutant, the voice of the commander sends an order (not a request) to "Come On. Big Village" which could have only signified that unlike the camps at Washita which were strung out for 7 miles or more, this village was intact (Big) and all of the separated military components - including the ammo train- would now be desperately needed to work in conjunction if success were to be accomplished. Dark Cloud sees nothing but jovial verbal patter between Custer and Benteen as if there was absolutely nothing amiss as Custer's note could not have been taken seriously because Dark Cloud somehow knows that there were no plans because Benteen, Custer, and Reno. How does he know this historical fact? Reno said there were no plans and Benteen said there were no plans thus there were no plans. I expect nothing more of Dark Cloud as his lopsided, skewered, and vastly unsupported theories are simply murmurings of a an individual who enjoys rubbing against the grain and indulging in tossing insults at any who dare to disagree with his "theories?" What has shocked me beyond belief is that Fred agrees with Dark Cloud's absurd and unfounded supposition that the paper order from Custer was nonsensical and unworthy of compliance. To bad that Custer did not have a cell phone, if so the confusion regarding his order would have been clarified. Absolutely amazing!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 22, 2012 17:52:25 GMT -6
Rather than merely looking at and mentioning the gigantic tome of 400 pages - wow..., they should write a folk song for the heroes who can get through it - at your side, why don't you actually read it and inform? Of course an 1864 artillery manual - written and published when the duration of the Civil War was unknown and when the North had more artillery than it knew what to do with - might not have any bearing whatever on the 1876 cavalry in the west fighting an entirely different enemy in an entirely different climate and landscape, but since you think it does, what is it?
"Therefore it was the "unknowing"packs which dictated the speed of advance of Benteen." As Custer would know, having assigned their responsibility at this late date to Benteen. Benteen could advance no faster than his responsibility to the train. And did not.
Benteen did accomplish his mission based on what Gibson told him: he'd seen the LBH to the south and no sign of Indians. As per his original orders, he returned to the trail, watered as required, and took to the trot when evidence provided need. He was not required to report to Custer or the message would have mentioned it.
You're just making up scenarios and interpretations so that the LBH bears some resemblance to an Irish battle in the revolution and civil war, many of which involved vast numbers up to 100 men, and find something that makes you feel at home and comfy: a betrayal, a shot in the back, a change of sides under fire, murder. Something. It isn't here, though. Must be terribly unsettling.
If anything whatever existed as you hopefully postulate and Benteen was in violation of it, they'd have been all over him at the COI to nullify his testimony. They didn't seem to notice anything like it. Nothing of the sort occurred, certainly not to his face. But, they're dead now, so no fear of that by our brave Irish clerk. Fun to kick combat vets when they're long dead, especially if you get to disregard the rather consistent testimony of those actually there.
Wiggs as ever hopes to implant himself as an adult. Having stopped all participation on at least two boards, one his own, he's going for the trifecta. As usual, what he states as fact is not and generally contrary to something he's also posted as fact in the past. Reply if you enjoy corresponding to someone pretending to be female, who lied about it, lied about lying about it, and can't construct a personality worthy of mention after a decade and several user ID's.
Just as Wild hopes his old posts will be forgotten if not forgiven, Wiggs doesn't want you to read his idiocies either. For laughs, though, urls to some of his more moronic moments are posted on this board. So are wild's.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 22, 2012 18:55:27 GMT -6
Reddirt tells how much dust would Benteen be raising before he gets back to Reno Creek?
As usual you attack Darkcloud and come out the loser every time it sounds like the definition of insanity you keep doing the same them over and over expecting different results.
Give it up Joe
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Apr 23, 2012 0:17:06 GMT -6
DC.A man's life is put at risk to deliver your "exhortation" to be happy? This is a Major General communicating with a Colonel,both civil war vets.Exhortations are for girl guides If Benteen matched his speed to that of the packs,because he did not communicate with said packs it was the slowest mule which dictated the pace. Communications,the issuing and acknowledgement of orders would not be effected by topography or climate. If you had read my post re "artillery manual" you would see the point I was making. "He was not required to report to Custer or the message would have mentioned it." The order was a recall and was completed when Benteen reported his command to Custer. Further, leaving all regulations aside Benteen was clearly aware that an attack on an enemy village was the intention and that best practice would dicitate that he place his command at the disposal of his commander.
If anything whatever existed as you hopefully postulate and Benteen was in violation of it, they'd have been all over him at the COI to nullify his testimony The COI was held at Reno's request and was not initiated by the Army authorities. A humiliating defeat had been inflicted on US arms by the Indians complete with loss of one Major General with extra massacre on the side and the authorities did not think fit to investigate? No,the COI was only going to deal with the Reno thingy.
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Post by fred on Apr 23, 2012 6:11:08 GMT -6
Dear God, Reddirt, I've seen rock piles that make more sense than you. First of all, your attempt at sarcasm-- I am assuming, at Dark Cloud's expense-- is utterly juvenile. You should go back to the dictionary... or at least complete your GED. Apparently Dark Cloud is under the impression that the three commands led by Custer, Reno, and Benteen were operating in a mystical vacuum of silence and, the three commands were operating on three different planets;a million miles apart!... No point suggested... no point made.... Schoolyard simplicity dissipating more quickly than an aerosol in a typhoon. You know this as a fact, right, Napoleon? Wow! Was that stated or implied? Was that as clear to Benteen-- or anyone else-- as the "be quick" and "bring packs" order? Which was the "order"... bring packs or be quick? Or both? And if "both," please tell me how. My military experience doesn't cover such an advanced course in tactics. Wow!, Encore! Your military genius is really coming to the fore here. Great job, 'Dirt! Now, let me ask you this... how was Benteen to interpret the remarks of Kanipe and Martini?... you know, those remarks alluding to the Indians being on the run, running away...? How does the word "desperately" fit into that scenario? [ GED! GED!! GED!!!] Refer me here, 'Dirt. I missed this part. I guess I was too busy recording the source material I use to support what I say. 2-0. Shutout. "Us" versus "you." "Supportable" versus "Non-Supportable." Please point out to me all those others who "overheard" these plans. We have guys who heard Custer give Reno his orders, direct-- but don't remember what they were; we have guys who overheard Reno and Weir arguing-- even though they were supposed to be on a skirmish line 100 yards away; we have these guys who heard Custer say there was a satellite village on Reno Creek-- when there wasn't; who told you there were "plans"? Where did you dig that up? Or is it another of your asinine, unsupported and unsupportable theories, because "it must have been"? And were there plans for Custer to turn right off Reno Creek, when not 10 minutes earlier he told Reno-- through his adjutant-- that he would support him? Wow! [Have I said that before?] Again, I missed this part. Why don't you pick out each part of what DC said that supports each of your allegations. Each one... do it specifically and match it up to your accusations. You know how to do that, right? It is the same thing I do with my researches. [Didn't you know that's the way it works?... You make a point and you support it with "fact" or "testimony" or "evidence" of some sort.] [Your lack of a GED is showing here...] Really!? Point this out to me, will you? Point out to me where I have said the Cooke note was "nonsensical and unworthy of compliance." Or DC, for that matter! Show me where he and I said that. At my ripe old age, I seem to be forgetting more and more, but I'm sure-- along with all these other things-- you will point that out to me. The only "amazing" thing here is that you have the courage-- or temerity-- to come on these boards to show so much utter stupidity. Reddirt... go away. Go over to the other boards; you will fit in beautifully over there: unmitigated stupidity disguised as "scholarship," snickering at everything that disagrees with your "world-view" of the LBH, stupid unsupportable theories, bias, prejudice and preconceptions. Prove it, moron! Prove anything, anything at all. The joke is you: you have neither proven nor supported a single thing! Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Apr 23, 2012 8:14:30 GMT -6
The order was a recall and was completed when Benteen reported his command to Custer. Sorry, Wild, I do not agree with this at all. Too rigid... sounds more like a Soviet commissar: "Take that hill!"Again, when the note was written, Custer had not fired a single shot; Reno was doing his job; and Custer would believe the village was on the run. Custer trusted Benteen entirely too much; Custer was no dummy, he knew the mettle of the man, and he would trust Benteen to do the right thing once on the battlefield. Custer was on the offensive, chasing after running Indians, no clue what would eventually befall him. Your statement above assumes Custer feared the worst, and I do not see that as being the case. Based on everything I have done in training exercises, in combat; based on every piece of tactical data I have studied; based on everything I have read and practiced, that note was merely meant for Benteen to stop what he was doing and come to the scene of the action. Everything would be figured out once he arrived... and Benteen would do the figuring. That is exactly what he did and he didn't take his time in doing it. He adhered to the very letter of those instructions. He was already moving quickly... he was beyond the lone tepee when he got the note... and when he saw the trouble, the dichotomy of reality and what he had been told, he fulfilled the second part of those instructions when he moved forward after knowing the packs were arriving on the hilltop. The main bug-a-boo in the arguments of the people critical of Benteen lies in the location of the lone tepee. The detractors all claim the tepee was 4 1/2 to 5 miles east of the LBH. Proof otherwise negates their hatred. Despite virtually every account, despite artifactual evidence to the contrary, despite logic and simple reasoning, these detractors refuse to believe the tepee was only 1.7 miles from the river. And why? Well, now, that would mean Benteen was hustling right along, proving their theories about their favorite whipping boy incorrect and unsubstantiated. That is what the Circus Clown, Bill Rini, does. And you are a damn sight smarter than that guy!! Best wishes, Fred.
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