Crow Scouts' knowledge of LBH

[El Crab]

Nov 12, 2011 20:07:34 GMT -6 fred said:

Or so it would seem based on the military's view of their "experience" in 1876. The fact remains that when Crook's presence was reported... at a distance greater than when Custer believed he was spotted (at the divide), the Indians did not scatter, but turned and attacked.

How close was Crook to the village when he was attacked in camp? Not necessarily as the crow flies, but a realistic marching distance?

I have no doubt that if Custer was discovered and hadn't moved to the attack, the warriors would've headed out to attack him. But if I'm not mistaken, when Crook's presence was discovered, the village didn't immediately break up to move away. Meaning, the distance was greater and Crook was not yet viewed as threatening the village. And didn't they hold a council, to decide what to do about Crook?

Of course, Crook had been discovered in camp the night before the Rosebud Fight occurred, so they had at least the night before to decide what to do. But did the camp move out of necessity or at all? I'll admit, I've not read much about Crook and the Rosebud.

Likely, if Custer was discovered 15 miles away, the warriors would've headed towards the Seventh immediately while the village broke and headed the opposite direction.

[quincannon]

Rosebud you were indeed of help. In fact it was you original post on page one that got me thinking along these lines. Basicly we think we know so much about this battle, but do we really. You see for me it is not about taking sides, hating one, despising another, in love with a third. What facinates me is the mental process, not what decisions were made so much but how they were made, why they were made, and what if any outside influences effected the decision making process. We have here a classic decision point. We think we know why the decision was made, but until we examine the alternatives to that decision, every one, and go through the process similar to what Custer went through we really don't know as much as we thought we did at the outset. This process puts the opinions we have on much firmer ground because they have been tested.

[quincannon]

OK: I want to review the bidding here. I am working off memory and not checking text.

Custer's original plan was to attack at dawn on the 26th. He intended to lay up on the 25th in an assembly area,and move under cover of darkness to his attack positions. During this time he went to the Crow's Nest where his scouts said they saw a village. So far no change. Upon returning he was confronted with the news of the packs being discovered along the back trail. He weighed the factors and decided to move into the attack immediately assuming that not only had he been discovered but that discovery would be reported. He moved toward the LBH and it was in route and on the LBH side of the divide he was discovered and that discovery was reported, as Fred indicated, about the time Reno was crossing the LBH.

Is this an approximation of a summery of events, or have I missed something or am I talking about the battle of Gettysburg?

Now assuming that I am close to correct as to events, the discovery that was reported was a BUT FOR. But for the fact he moved he may not have been discovered?

[rosebud]

He weighed the factors and decided to move into the attack immediately assuming that not only had he been discovered but that discovery would be reported.

Actually, Tom Custer brought the troops up, knowing( or at least think he knows) that they will not be able to wait. .....I think that Custer has also been told by the scouts at the Crows Nest that he has been spotted but does not really want to believe them..at this point I feel he is still undecided until he sees Tom with the troops.

But other than that I think you have it about right so far.

He moved toward the LBH and it was in route and on the LBH side of the divide that he was discovered and that discover was reported, as Fred indicated, about the time Reno was crossing the LBH.

I can't speak for Fred nor do I wish to. My take on what Fred said is .....Although the Indians have spotted Custer at the divide. Word has not reached the village of Custer's advance. After all those Indians will need to travel the same 15 miles to deliver this message.

What a mess.......I should say the Indians were on the divide when they spotted Custer's men or scouts. Custer's men were still in Davis Creek at this time.

If I have this wrong, I am sure Fred can get us on the right track.

Rosebud

[fred]

An extremely good discussion.

As for the Crook fight... I do not recall the distance involved, but it was clearly longer. Of course that depends on where you believe the Indians were camped. The best first-hand source I have read-- the one that sounds the most credible to me because he describes the route they took-- indicates the Indians were camped on Reno Creek. Other sources claim it was at the Busby bend. The bogey is that wherever they were camped, the village did not break up and run as was the pattern. I would think therefore, that if the circumstances were the same with Custer's command, this new "pattern" would have held sway as well. In other words, the village would have remained where it was.

Now... the Custer attack conundrum. And it will get controversial here....

I believe there is credible circumstantial evidence that Custer may have weighed the option of attacking without Terry as early as June 22. There are a number of indications-- again, purely circumstantial-- that this was so. And, it may not have been without Terry, per se, but before Terry, de facto.

I think he probably decided against it some time late in the afternoon of the 24th, before breaking the 1 PM to 5 PM camp, just before moving toward the Busby bend area.

When he camped at Busby, the belief was still that the Indians were in the LBH valley, but moving up the valley. As soon as word got back that the Sioux had used the Davis Creek route to the LBH, Custer ordered the night march.

There is great misunderstanding here, as well, for almost every "scholar" or writer or student or historian thinks this Busby camp was longer than it actually was, but a careful study of the timing indicates otherwise. If you read some of the work of Tom Heski and add that to data you can find at the U. S. N. O., you can piece it together, especially when you start dropping comments from some of the participants into the mix.

Custer now decides to move at 11 PM. He does so with the intention of crossing the divide in the dark and sequestering his troops in the ravines and valleys west of the divide. By doing this, he has clearly ruled out any thoughts of acting alone-- without using Terry as an "anvil"-- assuming he believes the Indians are camped on the lower LBH! He can make this assumption because of the freshness of the trail, and not because he knows where the Indians are camped specifically. This is an important point!

Somewhere along the way-- and there is more controversy here-- Custer is told he will not be able to cross the divide before light. This is when he decides to go into camp at Halt 1. This rules out his plan to cross and hide; he now has to remain in the Davis Creek area... and hide. Chancy, chancy, chancy!

Things then begin to happen. At light, the camp's location is confirmed... at least by the scouts. These same scouts spot hostiles... groups of hostiles. Camp cooking fires are spotted by the scouts who are now furious about it because they believe the Sioux scouts are seeing the same thing. Custer is informed of the hostiles' location. He moves; his command follows... and there is great confusion at this, as well... and I have my own ideas and theories of it, all of which I can support... at least logically.

As the command moves toward Halt 2, SGT Curtiss discovers some of his belongings missing; he is sent back; he spots Indians; he runs them off; he returns and reports to Keogh, who reports to Yates, who reports to Cooke, who tells Custer. Custer has also been told of the "groups" of Indians the scouts saw from the Crow's Nest hill; the cooking fires' smoke; and the backbreaker, when Herendeen and Boyer tell him of brand-new pony tracks heading toward the LBH valley, right from where they are. Bingo!, and the die is cast.

And yes, those Indian scouts, if they are heading back to alert the village-- and Custer mustassume they are!-- are not walking, but busting their butts to get back with a warning.

And now we have one of my pet bug-a-boos: when people like John Gray, our boys "conz," "keogh," and others, claim Custer now walked down Reno Creek at the grand old speed of some 4 MPH. Horsefeathers!

The irony in all this is that no one alerted the village until the boy Deeds was killed by a couple of scouts right around the Ford A area. All the activity seen as the command was in the flats hadn't made it to the village yet... it was still almost three miles farther downstream, and Custer's command-- from leading scouts to trailing stragglers-- was spread out and only closing up as they slowed down around the lone tepee. Additional irony is provided when we realize that the smoke signals seen along the Rosebud were made by Little Wolf's small band; the Indians rifling Curtiss' pack were these same guys; and the pony tracks seen by Herendeen and Boyer were made by the Indians Curtiss ran off... and none of them made the main camp until after the Custer fighting was over. So damn weird!

Best wishes,
Fred.

[quincannon]

Yes it is. I come over here for relaxation and education after having my fill of the Bowery Boys. It's past your bedtime you old buzzard. What are you doing up so late. Wait, I know, its that infantry mind set.

[El Crab]

Nov 12, 2011 21:26:55 GMT -6 @rosebud said:

Actually, Tom Custer brought the troops up, knowing( or at least think he knows) that they will not be able to wait. .....

Source? This is the biggest mystery to me, no one seems to know how the regiment got to moving, no one has ever owned up to it or said who did it.

And my recollection of the story is Custer was coming back from the Crow's Nest and Tom Custer and Lt. Calhoun were riding toward him, with the regiment moving out at some distance behind them. Custer was mad and angrily asked Tom who moved the regiment, but didn't wait for an answer. He went right on to the matter at hand: they were discovered and must move to attack immediately.

I suppose it doesn't matter. But its one of those things that should be explained but if it has been, I've never read it.

[El Crab]

Nov 12, 2011 23:01:02 GMT -6 fred said:

An extremely good discussion.

As for the Crook fight... I do not recall the distance involved, but it was clearly longer. Of course that depends on where you believe the Indians were camped. The best first-hand source I have read-- the one that sounds the most credible to me because he describes the route they took-- indicates the Indians were camped on Reno Creek. Other sources claim it was at the Busby bend. The bogey is that wherever they were camped, the village did not break up and run as was the pattern. I would think therefore, that if the circumstances were the same with Custer's command, this new "pattern" would have held sway as well. In other words, the village would have remained where it was.

Can't believe I forgot this. The dead warrior at the Lone Tipi site was a casualty of the Rosebud fight. I want to say he died at least a day after the fight. I would think that would be a good clue to resolving where the village was during the Rosebud battle, depending on the particulars of that casualty.

[fred]

Nov 13, 2011 0:38:57 GMT -6 El Crab said:

Can't believe I forgot this. The dead warrior at the Lone Tipi site was a casualty of the Rosebud fight.

Yeah, that kinda cements it, doesn't it? If you put it up without the caveat, however, you'll wind up getting slammed, probably by someone like "Herosbedrest." I do not recall when they departed that camp... and while not a terribly wide camp, a camp longer than the one on the LBH. Plus, there are indications they spent a couple of more nights in a camp above Ford A-- in the direction Terry, Gibbon, and Custer expected them to go-- before reports of plentiful game in the lower reaches of the LBH valley. Makes sense.

And Queenie... you're right... way past my bedtime. Couldn't sleep, however. I have to head out today, going to New Jersey for a one-week BS training seminar for work. Sheer nonsense; imagine, with 22 years experience, I am going to have some 35-year olds tell me how to speak on the phone and how to "sell" investment products. Sometimes I wonder if I should just call it quits and give up this "job ghost" once and for all. I would probably have as much fun pumping coffee in some back-woods Starbuck's. If I could ever convince my wife to move out west to some place not called California, maybe Justin and I could bury the hatchet in some place other than one another's head and punch cattle together. He could teach me to ride and I could teach him how to do it "properly"!

As for the early-morning move from Halt 1 to Halt 2, Crab, this is another of those weird things where you have to sift through all the he-said, she-said nonsense and apply logic. Even then there is no guarantee, however. Personally-- and I have devoted an entire chapter in my forthcoming tome about this thing-- I think it was a simple screw-up, much like Bruce Liddic believes.

Red Star came back with Varnum's note and I think that when Custer recognized the full import of what was in it, a flurry of activity ensued. Unlike the hogwash in SOTMS, I doubt seriously that Custer rode back and forth, bare-back, but I do believe he rode-- back and forth-- alerting the camp to move. Benteen alludes to this, as does Reno I believe.

I believe Custer himself grabbed a party of people... Voss, Gerard, some others... and headed out toward the Crow's Nest, lickety-split. There are some who believe he mosied there at the head of the regiment, but that boggles my mind when one thinks about it... can you just picture GAC moving at 2-3 MPH-- essentially the speed the column moved in going from Halt 1 to Halt 2-- when the whole object of this 40-day campaign had reportedly been sighted? Well, I cannot! I hate to say it again, but it goes back to a timing issue once more.

Besides, in one of Varnum's somewhat contradictory accounts, he claimed he and Custer sat atop the hill watching the regiment approach. So, as far as I am concerned, Custer, et cie., moved out smartly, well ahead of the regiment, and he simply got confused over what he had ordered Cooke and TWC to do. He probably felt he had just alerted them to move, but never actually issued the order. Remember, too, he still had no intention-- at this time-- to attack during the day. That all came later when the regiment was at Halt 2, and his Officers' Call was basically nearing its end.

Also remember that the regiment moved with the packs and probably wanting everything to be closed up; there was confusion over what had been ordered; and no one was really in charge... neither of the senior officers had been informed about anything, and Cooke, TWC, and Calhoun were probably at the head of the column... heaven only knows where Reno was.

So, the ass-chewing occurred briefly and was then forgotten as the picture cleared up, reports filtering in and beginning to add up... the Curtiss pack incident; groups of hostiles seen; campfire smoke being seen; pony trails spotted; "worms" in the distance; haze, smoke, and uncertainty... and even here, some confusion and uncertainty needing to be straightened out.

Makes sense to me.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

And yes, Queenie, how do you stand it over there? I went back because that fellow "warrior" posted some really great stuff, but now that he has pulled away (after having discovered the same crap you already knew) I have no real interest in that board. I really am tired of the fight. It isn't worth it. Except maybe for "Herosbedrest"... he truly has no clue. He is so outrageously stupid, he is almost fun to dig at. I often wonder if he isn't a remoted-clone of the Swiss Misses.... Think about it. There are some signs....

Best wishes,
Fred.

[rosebud]

maybe Justin and I could bury the hatchet in some place other than one another's head and punch cattle together. He could teach me to ride and I could teach him how to do it "properly"!

I am sure we would still find something to argue about. The ranch next door is for sale...Buy it and we can fight over who has to fix the fences.

Happy Trails
Rosebud

[rosebud]

Source? This is the biggest mystery to me, no one seems to know how the regiment got to moving, no one has ever owned up to it or said who did it.


Got to agree with you. I hope I didn't come up with this from watching a movie. When you take a look at this it does not fit like it should. When Custer returns from the Crows nest it is stated that he has officers call and the first to report would get the lead.

If Tom Custer, or whoever else, had them on the move already, there should be no need to have anyone report to see if they were ready. Did someone just make this story up so it gives Custer more credibility? I mean....If they already have them moving, it makes it look like everyone knows they will need to attack the village as soon as possible. Its no longer just Custer who thinks they need to attack...Heck, only an idiot would not do as Custer did..

Now I am stumped. any ideas?

Good one El Crab.
Rosebud

[Dark Cloud]

When the news came in about the box being pillaged by the Indians, TWC said they had to tell Custer, and even though this didn't involve him or his company whatever, he rode to meet his brother coming down from the CN. He rode past the front of the regiment, which somehow got up and was brought forward.

According to the scout with Custer, perhaps Gerard, the general was furious and wanted to know who had done that, but after TWC brought him up to date, the matter dropped. Had anyone BUT TWC brought the regiment forward, I doubt that would be plausible.

I still think there was the official and an actual chain of command, the latter which kicked in at need. I think it was understood and this because it worked fine. TWC was the actual #2, especially if Custer was wounded and had not ceded command, and DID know his bro well and would be able and had been able to foretell Custer's needs and conclusions and tendencies. I think this is an example. I also don't think it was that unusual in that particular Army at that particular time. TWC did exactly what his brother would have done with the box incident info. Neither Reno nor Benteen were involved or informed at that point.

I suspect much the same happened with the Kanipe message. Excitement and confusion on the high ground, TWC sends someone back for the packs and an update in case, Custer may not have known when he sent Martin to Benteen. I don't think this speaks ill of Custer, either.

And I suspect if THE Custer or any Custer got wounded in and around MTC, the actual kicked in to protect its own. There was a reason for taking nepotism to the extent Custer did.

Understand that it looks too perfect an irony for the actual to have made the decisions that put 5 companies on high ground with no cover and surrounded, but it does make sense to me. It precludes unnecessary insistence that the 7th was initiating complicated yet precise if untrained for tactical distributions prior to a successful attack on the village if not for treason when drunk, etc.

["Hunk" Papa]

Nov 11, 2011 18:26:00 GMT -6 @rosebud said:

It is confirmation that the Crow tribe knew that area intimately and it is possible that the older Crow scouts with Custer were in that fight. Boyer of course, had guided and traded all through that region for a number of years, so I believe it is safe to say that Custer had a wealth of local knowledge with him.
Hunk
True Hunk.....But to what extent would he be willing to use this information?
It will not be up to the scouts to tell Custer HOW to engage the Indians. They are only there to FIND the Indians.

To the extent that it fitted in with what he had in mind. As Boyer had given Terry and Custer important input at the June 20th conference, it is hardly likely that Custer would not have had faith in his local knowledge and by extension that of the Crow scouts.

Of course it was not the remit of the scouts to dictate strategy. They had done their job in finding the camps as you say and Custer made that clear when he told Boyer that they were free to leave. By that time Custer would have obtained all the terrain details he would need in general terms, so the rest was up to him. Unfortunately, the Lakota and Cheyenne warriors had other ideas.

[bc]

How about them Chiefs today? The Arrowhead fans sure did put a thumping on the Broncos as they were loud the whole game keeping Tebow to two pass completions.

Looks like I have some catching up to do here. I change my mind on the NAs attacking Custer at the divide. I guess they probably would have had he stayed there. As I recall, the Crook Rosebud fight was about 17 miles south of Divide or Busby. I wonder where they camped the night before as they set up their attack on Crook?

I don't think we can say that but for the regiment moving up from the Starbucks coffee camp to the officer's call halt (between which the mule lost its pack that Curtis reported) they wouldn't have been discovered. There were some Sioux around the divide that spotted the people at the Crow's nest and there was a gun fight at that time before they got away. I don't remember if they were the same Sioux who were up on the ridge that spotted the regiment as well.

I can see with Custer riding around talking to the officers of the camp sighting before he rode to the Crow's Nest could be interpreted to mean he wanted them to move up whether he said it or not. Later at the officer's call halt is when he told everyone to report their readiness. No matter what the order of movement was from the Starbucks camp, it was only a regular movement. It was at the officer's call where he announced his attack (plans). At this time all the troops were to get prepared for battle which included resupplying with the standard rifle and pistol loads. As the troops managed to shoot up ammo at game along the march not all soldiers had their full load and not all resupplied.

I think you could figure that about any coulee large/wide enough to carry water most of the time would likely end up at a fordable place at the river as sediment flowing down those water courses created an alluvial plain at their confluence with the river.

I also wonder what Varnum and the Rees saw from their White Rocks overlook and what he reported to Custer. That's another place to explore as to whether they could see the camp and MTC from that area. I do know MTC would be observable from SSR and the Weir point area.

bc