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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2011 18:20:22 GMT -6
Rosebud and I have our issues, but I agree totally with him on both the LBH fords and the Custer timing business. I also agree with him on how nonsensical it is to believe the Indians laid a "trap" for Custer, expecting him to do what he did.
I am a New York City boy (with summers spent in Massachusetts farm country as a youth), but I would suspect-- especially having made a number of trips to the battlefield-- that almost any coulee or ravine of any appreciable size would lead to a ford and I might think-- though I do not know-- that the river ingress would be gravelly enough to use as a decent crossing. Fords A, B, and D seem to be perfect examples of that, as is the Deep Ravine crossing. I might also think Mitch Boyer would have helped locate the larger fords, crossings more readily accessible to larger units, fords that would not become unusable because of overuse. Is there such a problem? Could such a thing happen?
As for Custer doing anything but hurrying, I cannot accept that notion, either. In my timing work, I give him a few minutes to water in North Fork; a few minutes watching Reno; a couple of minutes atop Luce Ridge, making decisions; a few minutes at Ford B looking over the situation; and a couple of minutes on Calhoun Hill issuing instructions. None of those times are excessive; none of them are contrived; and every one of them comes with reasonable explanations. Each is also based on my own experiences in the military, though obviously there are no similarities in the situations other than information gathering.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2011 18:40:53 GMT -6
It just seems that sometime we have to stop an examine conventional wisdom, and say is thus and so really the case, or in this instance was time really as big a factor as we have been led to believe. It might very well be so, but I think it would be helpful if it were laid on the table and examined once again. I am not sure what you mean here, so I may be off base, but it is my opinion that time was the most crucial element to the whole event, at least in Custer's mind. I think I read something from Rosebud alluding to the fact that almost all successful attacks on Indian villages occurred in the early morning hours when the villagers were asleep. If we look at the prelude to this thing, that appears to have been Custer's intentions all along and only when he was convinced his command had been spotted-- and that Indian scouts were heading back to inform the village!-- did he decide to attack right away. Of course, I am a bit more cynical and I often wonder if Custer contrived to do that anyway, just to exclude help from Terry and Gibbon. I have no proof, however... only circumstantial ruminations. Every shred of work I have been able to put together points to speed being the key. It all points, as well, to the simplest of facts, and that is the belief that regardless of the circumstances, the Indians would bolt were they forewarned. A failed campaign would do nothing to enhance anyone's reputation, least of all "Goldilocks'," especially with U. S. Grant breathing down his neck. Imagine the furrowed frowns if it got out that the Boy Wonder blew the campaign-- and how much did it cost?-- because the red guys escaped his grasp. He probably would have followed Libbie's train into New York real estate. Oh, the shame of it all!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2011 18:44:55 GMT -6
As I said before to Rosebud, I have no personal convictions on this matter, and all three of you are viewing the problem from a tactical rather than an operational perspective. Custer did hurry. At some point he had to hurry. That was because of the tactical situation that immediately confronted him brought on by his own haste.
From an operational perspective however the original intent was to attack on the 26th. Was it not? So considering that he most probably intended a dawn attack that would have been 18 hours after he crossed the divide. Now I know about the sightings and all that, but all those sightings told the hostiles, if indeed they were told is that soldiers were sighted on the other side of that very big hill. It did not tell them Custer's timing or intention. It told them that soldiers were around out there somewhere. That had absolutely no firm knowledge that Custer knew where they were. They had no firm knowledge that he would not wonder off to the left or turn around or halt in place or any number of other options. In fact had they acted on this scant piece of information they may very well have scattered into his line of march.
So consider the above and think beyond what we know happened before this timing thing is locked in concrete. It may very well be the same answer, but its worth a look.
Fred, I am not going to get in deep about bridges or fordability. The question was not about bridges or fords. The question was about scouts and their knowledge and the reliability in the decision making process of the information they provided in keeping with the intent of the thread.
Rosebud I have no knowledge of the success rate in catching scattered hostiles. Never seem to much matter to me and your examples are certainly true. I do however know that the job was eventually done, and there must have been some successful method in the doing. You will notice I did not say anything about how long it took, primarily because I know in war the easy is hard, and the hard sometimes looks impossible, so I don't look for the quick and easy. Unlike George, I expect it to be protraced and hard. not over in an afternoon, everybody goes home for a Bar B Q at Fort Lincoln on the fourth of July, easy
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Post by rosebud on Nov 12, 2011 18:53:51 GMT -6
Of course, I am a bit more cynical and I often wonder if Custer contrived to do that anyway, just to exclude help from Terry and Gibbon. I have no proof, however... only circumstantial ruminations
Fred
I agree with you....More importantly I think Terry and Gibbon would also agree and would say they expected Custer to be the first to hit the Indians. Rosebud
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Post by rosebud on Nov 12, 2011 19:36:43 GMT -6
From an operational perspective however the original intent was to attack on the 26th. Was it not?WHAT ......Absolutly not.....That is the biggest hoax spun by Custer haters. Do the math.....12 days rations with Custer expected to keep going up the Rosebud and not over to the LBH ....This will never have a coordinated attack by anyone on the 26th. Please RE--READ Custer's orders from Terry..See anything about the 26th mentioned?
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2011 19:49:05 GMT -6
Well there sure must be a lot of those Custer haters around. Written orders and verbal orders often differ in content, so while having read Terry's orders and there is no mention of that which I could find, are you sure that somewhere in the conversation Terry or Custer or Gibbon, or Howdy Doody did not say something along the lines of being at this place on or about the 26th? Are you absolutely sure, and if so how do you account for the fact that the two forces were on an intersecting course? Now to be absolutely sure you would have had to be there, and I don't believe you were. Often written orders are changed by verbal orders at the very last moment. So I ask you again are you sure? And where did I say anything about a coordinated attack. Did Custer not plan, and told his people of the plan to attack on the morning of the 26th? Was this not changed when he learned of his supposed discovery? I am asking here. Not telling.
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Post by El Crab on Nov 12, 2011 19:53:41 GMT -6
If we look at the prelude to this thing, that appears to have been Custer's intentions all along and only when he was convinced his command had been spotted-- and that Indian scouts were heading back to inform the village!-- did he decide to attack right away. Of course, I am a bit more cynical and I often wonder if Custer contrived to do that anyway, just to exclude help from Terry and Gibbon. I have no proof, however... only circumstantial ruminations. Wasn't Custer the one who argued they hadn't been spotted? The scouts were urging him to attack immediately since the command had been discovered and Custer repeatedly said he was sticking to his plan of a dawn attack on the 26th, and that the Seventh had not been spotted. If I'm remembering it correctly, Custer was adamant about sticking to his plan after returning from the Crow's Nest. I do think there's still room for Custer wanting to get their first, but as I'm sure you know, it wasn't till after the battle that guys like Terry and Gibbon claimed Custer rushed into battle and didn't wait for them. Several officers expressed the opinion that Custer was being sent out to bring the Indians to battle, and they could only hope to get in on the action. So what I'm saying is Custer could've stuck to his June 26th Dawn Attack plan and beat the Terry-Gibbon column. Perhaps Custer figured, given his maps, that the best the other column could do was show up as the mopping-up was occuring. Even if the Terry-Gibbon column had shown up in the Little Big Horn valley on the evening of the 25th, Custer would've had plenty of time. He was 15 miles away, marching again at night and launching the attack at dawn. Terry's column would've been waking up when Custer's attack began on the 26th. They likely would've known something was up, and moved out as quickly as possible. But Custer would've had the jump on them by then. Do you think Custer would've had any idea of when or where Terry might be? I would think he would. But regardless, a dawn attack would all but guarantee his regiment alone would be involved in the initial assault and likely most of the battle, if not its entirety.
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2011 19:54:09 GMT -6
Rosebud is correct here, as well. I think the only mention of the 26th-- if it was mentioned at all-- was that Terry said he would try to be at the confluence of the LBH and Big Horn rivers by the morning of the 26th. There was no plan for a coordinated attack, though again, Terry expressed his hope (concern?) that the infantry would be able to get into the fight.
Terry's original plan envisioned the Sioux moving up to LBH valley, not down. Even John Gray pointed out that Terry's plan made no allowances for the hostiles moving down the valley.
As Rosebud said, go back to the original orders. Terry assumed Custer would move up the entire Rosebud, making sure no Indians were "escaping in that direction-- south-- or crossing the Rosebud valley and escaping east, and then he would cross into the LBH valley.
By arriving at the LBH-BH confluence on the morning of the 26th, Terry could assume Custer would be just about at the top of the LBH valley. Terry would move up; Custer, down. I interpret the discretion in Custer's orders to pertain to any unforeseen circumstances that would arise were the Indians not playing the game as expected, i. e., "premature" movements eastward, etc. By this time, it was assumed/known the hostiles were in the LBH valley; that was no longer the issue. The problem would have arisen had Terry realized the Indians had moved down the valley, because his force was probably not large enough and mobile enough to deal with the Indians by itself... and Custer, by orders, would be too far away, up the Rosebud or into the upper LBH valley. So Indians moving down the valley would have presented a serious problem; obviously, by doing what he did-- though he didn't know it at the time, i. e., late-evening of the 24th-- Custer inadvertently solved that problem.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Nov 12, 2011 20:04:20 GMT -6
Did Custer not plan, and told his people of the plan to attack on the morning of the 26th? Was this not changed when he learned of his supposed discovery? I am asking here. Not
That part I agree with. Custer and the important thing to remember is ....CUSTER......was making this decision on his own. Tom Custer is the one who ordered the troops forward and Custer wanted to know what the hell was going on.
Supposed discovery....? How in the heck can you even say this. They were discovered, no question about it. If you think Custer should now sit on his ass, .....Well you are probably about the only one who thinks this. Just what are those Indians going to do? Keep quiet so Custer can make plans for a morning attack?
This is too crazy to even argue about. I will let others carry on if they wish. Does anyone agree with quincannon? I would be curious to know how many share his conviction on this subject.
Rosebud
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Post by fred on Nov 12, 2011 20:07:34 GMT -6
From an operational perspective however the original intent was to attack on the 26th. Was it not? Custer's original intent, not Terry's. The irony here is that none of this got back to the village until Reno was crossing at Ford A. Or so it would seem based on the military's view of their "experience" in 1876. The fact remains that when Crook's presence was reported... at a distance greater than when Custer believed he was spotted (at the divide), the Indians did not scatter, but turned and attacked. Well... if I understand this correctly, then I would think Rosebud has it pretty much nailed here as well. I am only guessing, but I would think some of these fords changed from year to year, and only the larger ones remaining fairly constant, e. g., MTC, Deep Ravine. I would think the Crow scouts and Boyer would tell Custer, "Look for a large ravine... a ford is sure to be at its end." It was a matter of getting behind the head of the refugee party, and I would think Boyer may have been more proficient than even the Crows in knowing that lay of the land. A guess. My problem with Custer and his scouts is that the scouts were the only ones who understood the situation and when they tried to communicate that to Custer, he refused to believe them. It isn't a matter of scouts dictating tactics or decisions, it is a simple matter of believing all they were reporting, and in that I believe Custer was remiss. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by El Crab on Nov 12, 2011 20:15:25 GMT -6
Well there sure must be a lot of those Custer haters around. Written orders and verbal orders often differ in content, so while having read Terry's orders and there is no mention of that which I could find, are you sure that somewhere in the conversation Terry or Custer or Gibbon, or Howdy Doody did not say something along the lines of being at this place on or about the 26th? Are you absolutely sure, and if so how do you account for the fact that the two forces were on an intersecting course? Now to be absolutely sure you would have had to be there, and I don't believe you were. Often written orders are changed by verbal orders at the very last moment. So I ask you again are you sure? And where did I say anything about a coordinated attack. Did Custer not plan, and told his people of the plan to attack on the morning of the 26th? Was this not changed when he learned of his supposed discovery? I am asking here. Not telling. I think it might've been estimated that, given the planned routes, that the two columns would likely be in the Little Big Horn valley by the 26th, converging on each other. Is that what you are referring to?
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Post by El Crab on Nov 12, 2011 20:20:32 GMT -6
Supposed discovery....? How in the heck can you even say this. They were discovered, no question about it. Woah. I read all of this, and I didn't immediately assume quincannon meant that Custer wasn't necessarily discovered. I got the impression that he meant Custer and his men had supposed they were discovered. The supposed discovery of the command, supposed by Custer.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2011 20:21:51 GMT -6
I think I already addressed what the hostiles could devine from a sighting of Custer. I see no need to go over this ground again.
Now keep in mind I don't care if any one agrees with my oppinions for I have not offered any. Only you Rosebud thinks that my questions are opinions. No they are onlyquestions to stimulate discussion and nothing more. You don't have to be the devil to be the Devil's Advocate you know, so just calm down and express the opinions you have. I find them most valuable. While our lunatic fringe friend in the ghost mask says to prove an theory you must first destroy it, which is so much crap, the oppinions should be brought out and at least tested and that testing will determine validity.
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Post by quincannon on Nov 12, 2011 20:30:45 GMT -6
Crab: You are correct. My meaning was that Custer at some point supposed he had been discovered.
Fred: I was speaking of Custer's intent to attack. I made no mention of a coordinated attack with Terry. I said they were on intersecting courses. I further believe that Custer's orders from Terry gave him a very wide descretion on how to proceed, and the freedom to disobey the letter to keep with the intent.
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Post by rosebud on Nov 12, 2011 20:35:41 GMT -6
Only you Rosebud thinks that my questions are opinions. No they are only questions to stimulate discussion and nothing more.
If that is the case, I hope I was of some help. Feel free to disagree with my conclusions. After all they are only my conclusions and if anyone has something that they think might change my mind, I would like to hear about it.
You have a strange way of asking questions, don't you think?
Rosebud
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