Deep Ravine Theory

[Dark Cloud]

The exchange here can leave the impression it was a series of pro-active decisions after measured consideration of chance by officers. Probably, it was somewhat less impressive, with officers reacting to moves of their men in duress and trying to keep some semblance of order.

yantaylor says "....there where so many NCOs found in this area from E Coy that they must have fought here as a unit..." Really? The specificity of corpses from specific companies is dubious. Most said the dead weren't recognizable and naked to boot, and most said the companies were often mixed together. If they did ID someone, there is a certain amount of wishful thinking that wants to believe others about him were from the same unit. Eh.

That E company is credited with the now iffy South Skirmish Line which morphed into Shoulda Been in Deep Ravine which was bent to Shoulda been in Cemetery Ravine but now is back to DR or thereabouts cannot be sure, to say no more. This desire for impossible to verify specificity is a real impediment, sometimes.

yantaylor has finished WCF. The result?

Hi, I had just finished a book called, ''Where Custer Fell'', and there is a segment on E Company's fight in the Basin area near the South Skirmish Line...." By George, there is, on page 114.

yantaylor continues:

"... it Say's (and I quote) Stands in Timber: the Soldiers where dismounted and the Cheyenne Suicide Boys made there attack, this scattered the Grey Soldiers Horses, more Warriors joined in the attack from the North and South, and the Grey Horses Soldiers ran to the big Ravine."

First, it is not a quote whatever. Taylor apparently doesn't know what a quote is, which is a word for word replication and handily placed within quotation marks. It is an arguable precis. Do not, anyone, say that is of petty unimportance.

In any case, so what? JSIT is just repeating tales as told him long, long ago. Taylor continues.....

"Now if this account is valid (which we don't know for sure) it sounds as if, Smith was wounded and take to the HQ for treatment....." Wha? Where the hell does that come from?

"... and E Coy where on the defensive in the area which Stand in Timber Say's he seen them, the Suicide Boys attack scare and away the horses, this causes panic, the rest of the warriors buoyed by this, take to the offensive, they drive between the Troopers and separate them from Custer who is further up on the rise, the Troopers from E Coy who survive decide to run for the Ravine for cover, some may have broken through back to the HQ, and some where killed in the area where they fought, the men who got to the Ravine where finished off, I say this because most of the bodies found in the Deep Ravine where from E Coy."

Again, John Stands in Timber did not, could not, have said he "seen" them. And, in fact, he is not credited in WCF with saying he "seen" them. He wasn't born at the time. He could not, therefore, specify Company E doing squat.

Stands in Timber was not a participant, but a well regarded historian who'd likely sob an the inaccuracies attached to him by Taylor. Indian accounts appearing late even from blood relatives of participants are no more reliable and laden with truth than anyone else's that far removed. How many removes is JSIT from a participant? How many years after? Even with all the good will in the world, this is not a conduit to Truth, per se.

THIS is how nonsense keeps getting watered.

More to the point, yantaylor, if you have no trouble spelling 'buoyed,' then knowing the difference between 'where' and 'were' ought to be doable, and 'their' and 'there.' This is just ridiculously sloppy, and as I would contend has been proven here, indicative of your sloppy reading and thinking, since you're claiming non existent quotes of an eye witness from someone not born yet.

It isn't a bad idea to spend time on a good post rather than 100 half-ass illiterate ones.

If, in turn, I have misread or misrepresented you here, I will apologize.

[wild]

C'mon Wild, you're smarter than this. You are just using gas here to post silliness.
And
It didn't work, ultimately, for the same reason nothing worked that day: too many Indians!
The action to be taken when faced with too many Indians is not to mount a hopeless charge but to take up a defensive position and fight on foot.
A charge into overwhelming numbers is to commit suicide.
If suggesting non suicidal tactics is gasing then I suggest you dust down your old GI respirator and take cover ;D

[Yan Taylor]

Spare me your excruciating wit darkcloud.
''there where so many NCOs found in this area from E Coy that they must have fought here'' that was from the book, you know, the books you went on and on about.
Stands in Timber did not, could not, have said he "seen" them. And, in fact, he is not credited in WCF with saying he "seen" them. He wasn't born at the time. He could not, therefore, specify Company E doing squat.
This was also from the book, but I am sure the people on this board and the other one to, can see what your game is here darkcloud, your so pathetic, it borders on the pitiful.

[benteen]

Sept 20, 2011 6:45:16 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

But did the men who tried to run from Last stand hill, try to contact the remains of E Coy, or was it just the most likely place to run.
Ian.

Ian,

I posted a more concise statement to you on the other board under the heading Ford B Feint/or attack.But that opinion applies to this entire battlefield. When Custer further split up his command, it was over. It was a rout. These soldiers running had nothing to do with tactics or orders. It was a slaughter. They were trying to get away from the killing fields, and no one least of all me, is going to fault them one bit.

Be Well
Dan

[Yan Taylor]

Strength to your arm Dan, thanks for your reply, I remember your posts, I know the soldiers that fled to Deep Ravine where running for there lives, but I wanted to mention the guys from E Coy, if this is true, then we could have two sets of men running for the same place.
You reply with dignity like 99% of people do on these boards Bill, Thanks.
Ian.

[Dark Cloud]

No, you don't get my game, yantaylor, as there is none. You can write as well as you read, which is pretty pathetic by your own examples just offered.

And, no, those are not from any book, yantaylor; they're not quotes. If they are, give the page number and book. Also? Because something is in a book doesn't necessarily mean it is true, or the author thinks it true, or much of anything beyond stating a hypothetical.

But nothing such as you suggest is likely to appear in a book, being near illiterate.

You said 'and I quote' and then didn't quote anything whatever and demonstrated you do not know what a quote actually is. You thought someone not born 'seen' something not possible. There was no 'wit' on my part, just an underlining of your incompetence. You posted it.

[fred]

Ian,

There was only one "set" of men running toward-- not for, but toward-- Deep Ravine: E Company.

I have posted this before, but it seems apt to put it again, as well. I have not seen a better or newer listing anywhere. For my two-cents or gold guinea, you can take it to the bank:

Douglas Scott-- the archaeologist-- claimed Custer, five officers, and perhaps forty enlisted personnel lay on Custer/Last Stand Hill. These are the ones identified.

• 28 names are documented: 14 privates
Ygnatz Stungewitz (C)
Willis B. Wright (C)
Anton Dohman (F)
Gustav Klein (F)
William H. Lerock (F)
Werner L. Liemann (F)
Edward C. Driscoll (I)
Archibald McIlhargey (I)
John E. Mitchell (I)
John Parker (I)
Francis T. Hughes (L)
Charles McCarthy (L)
Oscar F. Pardee (L)
Thomas S. Tweed (L)

• Two civilians
Boston Custer (QM)
Autie Reed

• One surgeon: Dr. George Lord (HQ)

• One trumpeter: Henry Voss (HQ)

• Four NCOs
SGM William Sharrow (HQ)
1SG Michael Kenney (F)
SGT John H. Groesbeck (F)
CPL William Teeman (F)

• SGT Robert Hughes’ (K) body was most likely the one found at the head of Deep Ravine, though there is a remote chance he was killed on Custer Hill. Supposedly identified by CPT McDougall.

• Six officers:
GAC (HQ)
William Cooke (HQ)
Tom Custer (C – HQ)
Algernon Smith (E)
George Yates (F)
William Van W. Reily (F)

• Presently, 52 markers are located on Custer Hill; 42 bodies had been buried there initially.

• Deep Ravine (8 men from Company E):
1SG Frederick Hohmeyer
SGT John S. Ogden
CPL George C. Brown
CPL Albert H. Meyer
PVT Richard Farrell
PVT William Huber
PVT Andy Knecht
PVT William H. Rees

I know there is some confusion and controversy regarding Lord and Voss, but I have no credible evidence refuting Scott's claim.

Bruce Liddic presented his own description of where bodies were found. Grouped near Custer around the top of the knoll:
LT Cooke (HQ)
PVT Driscoll (I)
PVT Parker (I)
LT Smith (E)
SGT John Vickory – Groesbeck (F)
TMP Voss (HQ)
PVT McCarthy (L)

• Deep Ravine:
SGT Hughes (K)
PVT Tim Donnelly (F)
PVT Andrew Knecht (E)

• On a rise above Deep Ravine: CPL John Briody (F)

• Farthest north on the battlefield, opposite the present parking lot on the east side of the service entrance road: SGM Sharrow (HQ).

• Lower west side, down the slope from the monument, about one hundred yards from George Custer:
Boston Custer
Autie Reed

• About 20 feet southeast of GAC, on a hillside: Dr. Lord (HQ)

It seems to me the only discrepancies between the two are with Liddic's PVT Tim Donnelly and CPL John Briody, and I would accept Liddic's view on this because according to the narratives of several Indians who were there, a small group of horsemen-- I guess there were some remaining-- broke from LSH at the very end and were cut down near the headcut of Deep Ravine. This would account for Hughes, Briody, and Donnelly.

There is also some talk about one or two men-- possibly as many as four-- who tried to make a getaway. These are generally thought to be 1SG Butler (L) and CPL Foley (C). I would suspect they died earlier in the fighting rather than later because of their units. If I remember correctly, Richard Fox said in all likelihood they came from the Keogh Sector and were cut down before Benteen would have arrived on Weir Peaks.

I make the case that Tom Weir reached the northernmost peak at 3:51 PM and I also claim that the most intense fighting on Calhoun Hill and in the Keogh Sector occurred from 3:53 to 4:25 PM. Since Edgerly would not have reached the loaf area and consolidated his troops until about 4:14 PM, I would venture to say Butler and Foley made their run some time between 4 PM and 4:15.

Foley was probably killed first, while it may have taken a few minutes longer to kill Butler, but both men would have reached their gravesites in very short order, no more than a couple of minutes.

Another thing to consider is the fact that there was an enormous amount of dust and smoke and I doubt seriously if anyone could peer into that imbroglio and come out with a cogent tale of what was occurring.

Tom Weir lived only about 5 1/2 months after the battle, but claimed he had a tale to tell. I suspect part of that may have been the sighting of Foley and Butler. Not a single solitary sole ever said a word about it, not officer, not EM. This being the case, it is clear to me, no one saw it... except maybe Weir. We all speculate that Tom Weir had this smoking gun he brought to his grave. I just wonder if it wasn't merely his own guilt in not telling what he saw and did nothing about.

Combat is funny; you sometimes take blame for events you could not control or do anything about, almost as though you blame yourself for living when others have died. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't just such thoughts that haunted Fred Benteen for the rest of his life.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Dark Cloud]

This is only sorta relevant, but since this touches on final moments, a reminder:

lbha.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=photos&thread=3509&page=1

Terrific photos by Wyman, and I call your attention to the last one at the bottom.

I've contended that when the LSH is arranged as early photos and testimony has things, it's much scarier. Eliminate in your mind the monument and fence, for starters.

Take out the ten on the far fight, roughly the twenty percent increase from the Sweet inflation. Those belong on the Reno field on in the valley.

Remove the two in the lower left. Those are for Boston and Reed and they were found hundreds of yards away by testimony.

Take about six or eight of the markers from the upper left to represent Custer and the guys and put them where the monument is on top of the hill. That's where they were found but buried in softer ground below.

Now look at the photos in Where Custer Fell and take a few markers and move them to the road heading south to Keogh's group. The photos show the original markers there.

Now, of the remaining markers, try to put them where the early photos show the wooden markers. Spread them about some.

Very, very different in the feeling it leaves.

[benteen]

Dark Cloud,

Thanks.I never thought that there was a real last stand. I did think however that as bad as it was and they knew they were going to die, at least they were together with their brothers at the end. Looking at Wy Mans photos and using your directions, yes it does leave a very different feeling. I can see it was even worse for these poor souls than I imagined. They died alone in absolute terror.

Be Well
Dan

[quincannon]

I see that Dark Cloud forgot to take his anti-oaf pills again this morning. You need to watch that for your own sake DC. Next thing you know you will be having the dreaded Joe Wiggs withdrawl symtoms again, and that can only lead to a near fatal attack of Custerwest Syndrome.

Ian: Whatever you are doing to the Bashful Boy From Boulder it seems to be working. The dreaded missing quotation mark gambit ranks up there with the best of Bobby Fisher.

Now DC you always seem to be looking for a fight yet you never seem to come my way. It's getting so bad that it is begining to hurt my feelings. Why, I ask myself does DC ignore me. He seems so combative, so ready to be critical of others yet, he passes me by. Almost more than a fellow can stand. I heard on the other board you were to be dreaded, to be feared. I find you are nothing but a puffed up cheap shot artist, a very cheap - cheap shot artist. I would think a man of your obvious intellect and education could do better in life, but I guess not. So come my way and we will see what develops, lest I get the vapors from neglect.

[Yan Taylor]

I apologize to the other people on this site, they should not have to read these posts by large cloud and myself, now I don’t usually associate with people of his ilk, but for the others on this board I will make an exception, if you have any more comments to make about either me or my posts, send it to me by PM, I will look forward to it, or do you need an audience and a stage to show off you cyber hard man image, because I don’t think this is going to stop here, you have made it obvious huge cloud that you will jump on any threads I will post.

BTW: big cloud said: Because something is in a book doesn't necessarily mean it is true.
Are these the books you have been going on for now for months, I will not use any you recommend then; the other folks have been more helpful in advising me on Custer literature.

Thanks Fred, the info has been a great help.
I wouldn't hold your breath Chuck, over the bully from Boulder.
Ian

[Dark Cloud]

Your problem, yantaylor, is that the posts of yours still up and on hard drives exhibit a level of literacy involving spelling, grammar, and logic that is your own. If you started issuing posts without any of them, it would be noted and wondered at. Has he magically improved? Did he get someone else to write them? Is he actually exhibiting compassion and spending a few minutes on them?

Has he read any of the books whatever? Would he understand them if he had? I've asked you to back up your assertions with book titles, pages, all that. You can't. Why do you deserve better than you've received? This isn't a tea party of olde women devoted to the cuddling of posters. It's a board on a historical event that purports to be interested in accuracy. Exhibit some of that interest, would you?

It's not my fault you claim someone not born at the time as a visual source for an event and pretend that brief and inaccurate summations are quotes. How do you explain that? Who could defend that level of error? Why?

Quincannon, you idiot, it's not the lack of quotation marks. I went to what he suggested was a quote in Custer Fell Here and what he said was a quote was not. Repeat: What he says is a quote is not. Understand? If he'd put quotation marks around it, it STILL wouldn't be a quote. It would be a fake quote. In KINDEST light, he doesn't know what a quote actually is.

This is what Wiggs has done, fabricated quotes. Yes, that's a serious issue. I'm not picking on him for being lazy or an idiot who doesn't understand what he's posted, exclusively. I'm slamming him because we don't allow fake quotes. How can you possibly argue with that? There's so much more, and you're enabling him when you should be mentoring him, since you claim him as a friend.

I've said if I've misrepresented him, I'd apologize. So? Where's the misrepresentation?

[Yan Taylor]

If this is just about the quote remark, it seems that you are just looking for an excuse, so let’s forget it for now because I have found the info from the book, just for you.

Where Custer Fell.
Page 112

Many of the dead in the deep ravine appeared to be man of Company E, the grey horse troop, and whose Identity could be determined , eight were recognised as men from that Company, two of the E Company’s three Sgt’s were there along with two of the Company’s Corporals.

Page 114

Stands in Timber said, they (the suicide boy’s) galloped up to the level ground near where the museum now is, and stampeded the horses of the soldiers.
As the Cheyenne historian states, Indians came from the north and south, forced the grey horse soldiers into the big ravine, all the soldiers except the grey horse men retreated afoot up the slope of Custer Ridge.

[quincannon]

Dark Cloud: I could not care less about who puts quotation marks here or there. That was not my intent. Do you think it was on purpose, or was it a mistake? In your world no one makes mistakes. No one uses improper grammer. No one spells incorrectly. Well this is not your world buster it is our world, with all its imperfections.

My intent was to point out that you behave like a swine in heat.

Now, I may very well be an idiot, but even an idiot can figure out that you are picking on this guy from the cover provided from you personal Bat Cave, and do not have the guts to take someone on face to face. You are a self admited coward and I see no reason to disabuse you of that particular notion.

[Dark Cloud]

You still don't know what a quote IS, yantaylor. If you had put quotation marks around what you typed, you'd have been guilty of a misquote. Only misspellings and absent words, this time. But what are you proving here? Didn't I credit you with a precis rather than a quote? Did you read and understand what I posted? Apparently not.

Quincannon, you're right, I am a coward. Now, you can pose as a hero for having done nothing on behalf of someone who, so far, is worth all of that.