Post by herosrest on Jul 15, 2011 8:22:17 GMT -6
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Regards all.
Responses
RAp 1 - The topic raised is a difficult one to broach, in the sense of 'opening up', because easily impaled upon aspects of 7th Cavalry's fight that have become sacrosanct to many who use classic study by fore and against; thus matters Lima Bravo become devisive and arrogant. Befitting a parliament and heavily lobbied debate.
RAp 2 - I am a modest fan of Sheakespeare and English roses. English being my first language.
RA 1 - In humble view, the crux of what took place should easily fall to chronology of events, and yet that has been only illusion provided to date. Those hitting the nail on the head were guided bymany vested interests. White hat, black hat, good guy and the fool is written large throughout fundemental study of the battle focused on 7th Cavalry's day. There is a problem and stubborn stumbling block with over-regard for F.W. Benteen and events of the 25th June.
RA 2 - John Martin never accepted that he mentioned skeddaling, certainly not in terms of Indians. The opposite is true, he denied having used the term in talk with F.W. Benteen. That was the vein of comments passed by Daniel Kanipe. Nowhere have I discovered acceptance by John Martin that it was him who told that the Indians were on the run. He knew differently and had seen Custer's command skeddadling, towards their battleground when he looked back from the high point, on his journey to F.W. Benteen. At that time M.A. Reno was fighting in the valley.
RA 3 - Endless record from inhabitants of the village of the many tribes, places Custer's column seen on the bluffs across from the village, seen coming down the high hill to the east, seen from and in Water Rat Creek. Custer's advance was seen on the bluffs across from the village, by its inhabitants and by C.A. Varnum. Varnum placed the troops beyond Weir's Peak which rules out a movement via Cedar Coule. There is a poigniant and signifcant record left by Walter M. Camp in the notes of interviews of John Martin - you can pick up on it at Astonisher, John Martin's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, #1.htm. In 1908, face to face with Martin, chit chat, chat, chat, Camp couldn't decide on the route followed by Custer's column.
RA 3c - Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance? He doesn't seem to think Custer cut across the hill. No, Custer followed coulee all the way. This heads way off into modern controversy and Maj. Controversy at that. Borderline heresy today - but 30 and more years after the battle and talking to Martin, Camp didn't have a clue. Did he? and the village was fout miles long to him!
RA 3b - The best 'qualified' record of that march along the bluffs exists with E.S. Curtis's data, gleaned from the Crow scouts who led him and his camera over the route followed. Curtis was by far the greatest and best qualified of historians who have studied the battle. It is odd that his data, is seriously ignored or debunked beside his conclusions. There was what remains today as unexplained, a delay apparent between Reno engaging and Custer's strike at the river. This is apparent from warrior record although not clearly because the tribal accounts are convoluted and awkward to graft into timelines
Continuum
BLA H1 - There are and were, many giving stout defence of F.W. Benteen, deserved or not, in relation to events of 25th June. It gets in the way. The man and his susbstance takes pride of place the substance of events. Benteen's Narrative is amongst the pages linked below.
BLA H2 - Benteen is quoted by F. Whittaker and is thus qualified in history as fact in time. It tells where Benteen went and how he got there. Pre-dating the narrative is Terry's report from the battleground of 27th June 1876. Anywhere on earth, in any court of law - the two are conclusive. For the student of the battle they offer serious tools for realistic study of the chronology of events.
BLA H3 - One of very few known relationships between the elements of 7th Cavalry is C.A. Varnum's sighting of Custer's command on the bluffs. Reno's command were dismounting then to fight on foot and thus, from Terry's report of the 27th June, we know where Benteen was at that time.
Sonata
I don't intend to drive this thread, I will repond views of mine and fact, where such is clearly demonstrable; as in locating precisely where the commands of Benteen, Reno and Custer were, 'when the action commenced'.
It will most probably be slow, messy, boring perhaps, the intended focus is trumpet calls heard by F.F. Gerard as Reno's command began retreat from the jungle, sorry.. timber. The floor is open, the format allows I hope to easily dissect the basis of my argument and I ardently invite contribution, prevarication and cross examination. Beyond all, I hope for inspiration from members who are most assuredly some of the most learned and knowledgeable battle buffs, nee experts, that walk the planet.
Was Gerard referring to bugle calls by Custer's command. It will be awhirlygig, if those with knowledge engage, it can be fun and invites disaster being easily flamed. I would hope all now realise my serious interest in the battle and dear love of fruit cake. We can ramble and rumble, twist and tweak awhile, then draw a hammer down and see what we shall and perhaps settle to a disciplined development of some Yahoo yardage.
If I have not responded to reply's above, this is a case of 'yet' rather than slight, I will muddle on, mull some matters over and hope fervently to neither upset or offend.
Bill.
DA TA - The (Benteen) narrative is at page 8 amongst the thumbnails. Whittaker's relevant text above it. Most everyone has seen Terry's report - LINK to...
Less known is that F. Whittaker was an experienced Cavalryman, Breveted Captain from the ranks. It is from Whittaker that seed was sown for the enduring afternoon seige of Custer's Hill and swashbuckling end, based on upon Kill Eagle and Curley, both accounts misunderstood - the fight until sunset took place around Reno Hill.
Regards all.
Responses
RAp 1 - The topic raised is a difficult one to broach, in the sense of 'opening up', because easily impaled upon aspects of 7th Cavalry's fight that have become sacrosanct to many who use classic study by fore and against; thus matters Lima Bravo become devisive and arrogant. Befitting a parliament and heavily lobbied debate.
RAp 2 - I am a modest fan of Sheakespeare and English roses. English being my first language.
RA 1 - In humble view, the crux of what took place should easily fall to chronology of events, and yet that has been only illusion provided to date. Those hitting the nail on the head were guided bymany vested interests. White hat, black hat, good guy and the fool is written large throughout fundemental study of the battle focused on 7th Cavalry's day. There is a problem and stubborn stumbling block with over-regard for F.W. Benteen and events of the 25th June.
RA 2 - John Martin never accepted that he mentioned skeddaling, certainly not in terms of Indians. The opposite is true, he denied having used the term in talk with F.W. Benteen. That was the vein of comments passed by Daniel Kanipe. Nowhere have I discovered acceptance by John Martin that it was him who told that the Indians were on the run. He knew differently and had seen Custer's command skeddadling, towards their battleground when he looked back from the high point, on his journey to F.W. Benteen. At that time M.A. Reno was fighting in the valley.
RA 3 - Endless record from inhabitants of the village of the many tribes, places Custer's column seen on the bluffs across from the village, seen coming down the high hill to the east, seen from and in Water Rat Creek. Custer's advance was seen on the bluffs across from the village, by its inhabitants and by C.A. Varnum. Varnum placed the troops beyond Weir's Peak which rules out a movement via Cedar Coule. There is a poigniant and signifcant record left by Walter M. Camp in the notes of interviews of John Martin - you can pick up on it at Astonisher, John Martin's Story of the Battle of the Little Bighorn, #1.htm. In 1908, face to face with Martin, chit chat, chat, chat, Camp couldn't decide on the route followed by Custer's column.
RA 3c - Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail or cut across the hill and save some of the distance? He doesn't seem to think Custer cut across the hill. No, Custer followed coulee all the way. This heads way off into modern controversy and Maj. Controversy at that. Borderline heresy today - but 30 and more years after the battle and talking to Martin, Camp didn't have a clue. Did he? and the village was fout miles long to him!
RA 3b - The best 'qualified' record of that march along the bluffs exists with E.S. Curtis's data, gleaned from the Crow scouts who led him and his camera over the route followed. Curtis was by far the greatest and best qualified of historians who have studied the battle. It is odd that his data, is seriously ignored or debunked beside his conclusions. There was what remains today as unexplained, a delay apparent between Reno engaging and Custer's strike at the river. This is apparent from warrior record although not clearly because the tribal accounts are convoluted and awkward to graft into timelines
Continuum
BLA H1 - There are and were, many giving stout defence of F.W. Benteen, deserved or not, in relation to events of 25th June. It gets in the way. The man and his susbstance takes pride of place the substance of events. Benteen's Narrative is amongst the pages linked below.
BLA H2 - Benteen is quoted by F. Whittaker and is thus qualified in history as fact in time. It tells where Benteen went and how he got there. Pre-dating the narrative is Terry's report from the battleground of 27th June 1876. Anywhere on earth, in any court of law - the two are conclusive. For the student of the battle they offer serious tools for realistic study of the chronology of events.
BLA H3 - One of very few known relationships between the elements of 7th Cavalry is C.A. Varnum's sighting of Custer's command on the bluffs. Reno's command were dismounting then to fight on foot and thus, from Terry's report of the 27th June, we know where Benteen was at that time.
Sonata
I don't intend to drive this thread, I will repond views of mine and fact, where such is clearly demonstrable; as in locating precisely where the commands of Benteen, Reno and Custer were, 'when the action commenced'.
It will most probably be slow, messy, boring perhaps, the intended focus is trumpet calls heard by F.F. Gerard as Reno's command began retreat from the jungle, sorry.. timber. The floor is open, the format allows I hope to easily dissect the basis of my argument and I ardently invite contribution, prevarication and cross examination. Beyond all, I hope for inspiration from members who are most assuredly some of the most learned and knowledgeable battle buffs, nee experts, that walk the planet.
Was Gerard referring to bugle calls by Custer's command. It will be awhirlygig, if those with knowledge engage, it can be fun and invites disaster being easily flamed. I would hope all now realise my serious interest in the battle and dear love of fruit cake. We can ramble and rumble, twist and tweak awhile, then draw a hammer down and see what we shall and perhaps settle to a disciplined development of some Yahoo yardage.
If I have not responded to reply's above, this is a case of 'yet' rather than slight, I will muddle on, mull some matters over and hope fervently to neither upset or offend.
Bill.
DA TA - The (Benteen) narrative is at page 8 amongst the thumbnails. Whittaker's relevant text above it. Most everyone has seen Terry's report - LINK to...
Less known is that F. Whittaker was an experienced Cavalryman, Breveted Captain from the ranks. It is from Whittaker that seed was sown for the enduring afternoon seige of Custer's Hill and swashbuckling end, based on upon Kill Eagle and Curley, both accounts misunderstood - the fight until sunset took place around Reno Hill.