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Post by fred on Aug 6, 2011 20:11:23 GMT -6
Rosebud and Steve,
Thanks for the comments. I appreciate them greatly and I hope the book is useful to you.
Rosebud, no, only the Huston quotes. The rest of the info is most likely from Ephriam Dickson, who has forgotten more than I will ever know. He also sent me his book which would probably add another 2,000 names to that list. I didn't use his book, however, because I didn't want to list additional names with no other real data.
When you go through the book, remember, this whole effort was merely a synthesis of work done by others. It is a collection of notes, of data, of interesting little snippets pertaining to various people. The things like DOB, height, eye color, etc., is straight from sources like Hammer, Williams, Nichols, and is less interesting than the mere fact the guy was present or some other little thing you might have to dig for.
There stuff that is really mine is mostly in the appendices, the determination of who was where, who fought with whom... stuff like that. Those two charts I would stack up with anything anyone has ever put together, and as far as I am concerned, are letter-perfect. Things like that are my real contribution. Indians who fought Reno or Custer, for example.
But again, I thank you all and I hope the darned thing was worth the money, that you enjoy it, and that you use it.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rosebud on Oct 29, 2011 13:49:16 GMT -6
As much as I hate to continue this discussion, I feel I have been forced to respond. Ephrams warning. Dec 17 2006 by Ephriam I have been hesitating to weigh in on this discussion as I watch it unfold -- I wish we could keep our discussions focused on the information in question and maintain a respectful and supportive atmosphere. From my own perspective, all forms of evidence used in reconstructing the past should be viewed with a critical eye. This is true whether we are talking about oral history passed down through several generations or a written census record; this includes maps and even photographs. Each of these records reflect the perspective of the individual(s) who recorded it, with all those imperfections and biases; and sometimes they reflect the misunderstandings of those who read or hear the information from within their own frame of reference. As avocational historians trying to understand the past, we have to be prepared to carefully examine every source and compare them with other data. I don't believe that having a critical eye about sources represents favoritism or racism, rather an effort to get closer to "the truth", whatever that may be. One of the writers in a message above is absolutely correct in suggesting that census records are not always accurate. I have found many inaccuracies, especially the earliest ones from the 1876-1881 period. At most, a census record represents just a snap shot and are not always easy to interpret as Lakota relationships were recorded by bureaucrats using the narrow Euro-American words and definitions. I find that census records cannot stand alone. They are most helpful when linked with other lines of evidence such as oral histories and additional documents. ephriam Thomas Disputed (Shave Elk) Ephriam-- It helps immensely! Now what can I do to help you? I am intent upon gathering the names of as many people as I can from that village. Can you imagine the implications on the story of that battle if you can more accurately pinpoint the number of people who were involved? To me, it's almost staggering & it has never even been closely attempted. Do I have to move to Utah? Fred As everyone can see. Fred has made his intentions and will not heed the GOOD advice that has been given by Ephriam. Now to the garbage about Fred and the KKK..... What a crock of crap. Anyone that read that post will know that there was no implication of Fred and the KKK. It was a comparison of the difficulty of the ability to JUSTLY identify either Indians or KKK. I could have used a different example so Fred might understand. So I will do so now. Fred, If you see a 6' 8'' black man on the street, it does not mean that he played basketball for the Harlem Globetrotters. Now I sure hope that Fred does not think I just called him black. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx The thing Fred is not understanding, is that as that there is no LITTLE BIGHORN surrender census. After the Battle some of the Indians went back to the Res and distanced them self from Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. However there were Indians from the res that, after they found out about the victory, left the Res and went to join the (Hostiles) This was a time of great turmoil among the Indians. Like everyone, The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. So you will see Agency Indians thinking that the Indians with Sitting Bull are doing good and they want to go join him. You will also see that there were Indians with Sitting Bull that became dissatisfied and wanted to go back to the Agency because they thought it would be a better life, so they went back. So in conclusion. The Sitting Bull surrender census was just as Ephram said it was..... A snapshot of who was with Sitting Bull on the day they surrendered.....NOTHING MORE. The same goes for the Crazy Horse surrender census. They were with Crazy Horse on that day. I do have more about Red Cloud and some of the others. I will save that argument for later. Rosebud
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Post by patrick422 on Nov 28, 2011 23:28:43 GMT -6
Whats the name of the book?, and is it on the kindle store?
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Post by benteen on Nov 30, 2011 8:52:14 GMT -6
Fred,
Capt, just a quick question. I have read that Reno had anywhere between 130-160 men when he charged the village. In your book you list MCo-57, GCo-45, ACo-50, all totals Officers and EM. This adds up to 152. My question is, are these the totals before or after Custer assigned 7 men from each company to the pack train, which would lessen the total to 131.
Be Well Dan
patrick422--The name of the book is "Participants in the Battle of the Little Big Horn' by Frederic C. Wagner Ill. It is an excellent source of information and a must have for anyone,but especially for those who wish to become a student of this battle and not just a reader of it like myself.
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Post by fred on Nov 30, 2011 9:27:35 GMT -6
Dan,
Go to pages 212 - 213. You will see a chart of the entire breakdown, from before the divide, to after the Custer fighting. Counting all the scouts and sundries attached to Reno, he would have commanded 176 EM and eight officers: 184, total. Then you begin the deductions: packs, orderlies, cooks, strikers, med assistants, etc.; and the additions.
His totals as he headed down the valley were: 41 in A Company; 37 in G; 47 in M; 13 in HQ; and 32 sundries. That totals 170. Of those numbers he lost 17 "sundries" on the way down the valley, i. e., 13 Rees and 4 Dakotas, to chase horses.
By the time he reached the skirmish line, he had 41 men in A (counting officers); 37 in G; 47 in M; and 13 in HQ; totaling 138 uniformed personnel. Add to that, 2 QM interpreters; 3 QM scouts; 8 Ree scouts; and 2 Crow scouts. That totals 153 effectives.
Of that number he lost 43 KIA and 25 WIA; 117 men eventually reached the hilltop.
And, as always, thanks for the kind words about the book.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by benteen on Nov 30, 2011 14:51:11 GMT -6
Thanks for the detailed response Capt, I am going to use with confidence the number 138 as the amount of soldiers that Reno led in his attack, for any future posts about this particular event.
Be Well Dan
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Post by El Crab on Dec 1, 2011 1:38:39 GMT -6
I hope the beautiful, lovely fiancee got me Fred's book for Christmas!
Don't you dare tell me if she did, Fred. But if she did, inscribe it however you'd like.
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jag
Full Member
Caption: IRAQI PHOTO'S -- (arrow to gun port) LOOK HERE -- SMILE -- WAIT FOR -- FLASH
Posts: 245
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Post by jag on Dec 1, 2011 6:06:31 GMT -6
I hope the beautiful, lovely fiancee got me Fred's book for Christmas! Don't you dare tell me if she did, Fred. But if she did, inscribe it however you'd like. A suggestion: Once I thought that love was meant for anyone else but me Once I thought you'd never come my way Now it only goes to show how wrong we all can be For now I have to tell you everyday My love is warmer than the warmest sunshine Softer than a sigh My love is deeper than the deepest ocean Wider than the sky My love is brighter than the brightest star That shines every night above And there is nothing in this world That can ever change my love
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Post by quincannon on Dec 1, 2011 8:06:20 GMT -6
Well JAG, it's not by Billy Ward and the Dominoes, certainly not the banned in Boston, "Sixty Minute Man", but you have romance in your soul from another era.
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Post by El Crab on Dec 1, 2011 14:37:52 GMT -6
My generation doesn't have that many great love songs, but this one is by far the best: www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9bRmuP-kQYBen Folds - The Luckiest I met Ben years ago in Seattle. That song will definitely be the song Chelsey and I have our first dance to. I've thought maybe having it be what we go down the aisle to, but I don't know if I wanna break tradition and not just have the usual music for that.
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Post by benteen on Aug 3, 2012 14:38:21 GMT -6
Capt Fred, I just finished reading "The Blood Of Heroes" by James Donovan. I enjoyed the book and got a new prospective of the battle, but I believe the book was written more for students of the battle than an enthusiast like myself. I could certainly be wrong but in your exchange with Rosebud I felt that your statement about single digits had nothing to do with Indians but rather with readers in general. The book will be enjoyable for all but like Donovans book is geared toward students. If this is the case, is it posible that you include a map. One that can be taken out of the book and placed on the table so as to visualize the places, times, distances so myself and others can follow accurately what you are discribing . Who knows you might make a student of me yet. Be well Dan
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Post by rosebud on Aug 3, 2012 15:50:37 GMT -6
I could certainly be wrong but in your exchange with Rosebud I felt that your statement about single digits had nothing to do with Indians but rather with readers in general. Dan
It would be interesting for me to be able to see how you draw this conclusion. Does this help any?
Think I will give him Fred's book and have him pass it around on the Res to see what they think. I will have them write any notes they like or don't like and send them to Fred.
Rosebud
Here is Fred's response PLEASE read it again. Don't waste your time and mine. They wouldn't like it; it deals only with the truth without patting anyone on the back for their brilliance.
Besides, it is a military and timing analysis only. That should keep its audience in single digits.
Best wishes, Fred
Judge for yourself. I know damn well he is talking about Indians! How in the heck can anyone come up with anything else?
Dan, If you are right and Fred only thinks single digit people will like his new book......I will wait to buy it on EBay....It should flood the market...Under $10 bucks.
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Post by quincannon on Aug 3, 2012 16:12:04 GMT -6
Rosebud you have ceased being a bore and are being just plain mean
Read it again nitwit. The statement has nothing to do with the brain power of anyone except perhaps yourself for misinterpreting the English language. Read it in its proper context.
Single digits refers to the overall expected amount of audience that Fred considers small because it deals with a military event and the time lines associated with them. It was not meant to be Gone With The Wind, or The deVinci Code and that was both the intent and content of the message.
It is no damned wonder then that you have so much trouble with Custer's message. It seems that you can neither read nor comprehend.
Now go back and continue feeling sorry for yourself you waste of flesh. Fred said what he said and he has a thick skin to ward off clowns like you, but Dan is one of the very few nice guys in this world and you treated him like s**t
Dan: This yardbird does not have the guts to say he was wrong or apologise for his mean spirited blather. In his stead I will.
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Post by rosebud on Aug 3, 2012 16:25:48 GMT -6
yap yap yap.....you again?
Dan; If I hurt your feelings, I apologize. Really.
I don't know what the fuss is all about? There was never a slam of Fred or his book. Quit making a big stink over nothing.
One more thing QCannon, I don't need a dip Sh*t like you translating my post. They can read a hell of a lot better than you. You follow me around just like a puppy. You can't get enough can you? Fetch boy fetch.
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Post by benteen on Aug 3, 2012 19:24:01 GMT -6
Colonel..... Thank you for the support and the kind words, they are very much appreciated.
Rosebud... No need for an apology. The only time my feeling are hurt is when I run out of Carlo Rossi and the liquor store is closed
As to the book,I did re-read the posts and I can see how if you look at this one sentence "Pat on back" You could feel that there is a prejudice against Indians. But in reading the entire context and content of the posts, what I come away with is that this is not going to be a flowing story like "Son of the Morning Star" but rather much written after extensive research about Distance,time,events,places, lines of march etc I use the term "Written for students" and I see that he yes doesnt care what Indians think but also Marines, Soldiers, award recipients ,in fact he basically defies anyone to prove his facts wrong. Kind of an equal opportunity challenge. You may very well come away with the opinion that he zeroes in on Indians that is certainly your right to do so, i just honestly dont see it that way.
On a side note.....Ive been in this forum with you for over 2 years, and yes you have never been a namby, pamby and always spoke your mind, but I have never seen this hostility toward everyone. RB you and everyone in the forum are good people with a common interest, there is no need for the vile insulting comments. how about we cease and desist with them
Be Well Dan
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