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Post by fred on Jan 28, 2015 15:54:20 GMT -6
Funny thing is I had seen the video of Fred on the hill ages ago when looking for any videos... Beth, That was taken by Scott Nelson (aka, "treasuredude" on these boards; his real name on FB) in June 2007. Michael Reeve (also on FB) and Michael Olson were on Calhoun Hill, then drove to LSH. We wanted to see if you could spot a guidon located on Weir Peaks... for obvious reasons. The conclusion was, yes, you could, though not easy or damn near impossible with a lot of smoke and dust. By the way, this was the now-(in)famous Montana Mayhem crowd. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Jan 28, 2015 15:59:14 GMT -6
I seem to remember reading somewhere about Reno being told only when he was already on the hilltop. I believe it was Reno who informed Hodgson's boss, McDougall. Also, don't forget, Benny Hodgson may have been the most popular officer in the regiment. I think I also read somewhere Hodgson was planning on leaving the service after this campaign and I also seem to remember that decision was not his alone to be made. I could be wrong about that....
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on Jan 28, 2015 16:00:29 GMT -6
Beth: "Also a question for clarification. We all know that Hodgson was dead at that time but would Reno have known? Would part of his search for Hodgson have been to just be certain he wasn't lying wounded below?"
I think Reno had to have known Hodgson was finished. Why send a party down to bury him? Best, c.
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Post by Beth on Jan 28, 2015 16:08:15 GMT -6
Beth: "Also a question for clarification. We all know that Hodgson was dead at that time but would Reno have known? Would part of his search for Hodgson have been to just be certain he wasn't lying wounded below?" I think Reno had to have known Hodgson was finished. Why send a party down to bury him? Best, c. Did Reno first go down to find Hodgson, return and then send a party down to bury him or was it one action? I thought it was two different trips down the bluff. Also were other wounded found and brought up? Have I gotten myself hopelessly confused? Beth
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Post by chris on Jan 28, 2015 16:19:19 GMT -6
Beth, no you are not. I just re-read Reno's testimony at RCOI. He said he went down to see if Hodgson was wounded - I was wrong again.
Haven't a clue if there were 2 trips to the river. Best, c.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2015 16:20:08 GMT -6
Three years ago this coming February my neighbor two doors down shot his wife, and put the pistol to his head in front of his three kids. He was a recently discharged soldier, an NCO, who had more than one tour in Iraq, and one in Afghanistan.
You could meet this man on the street at times and think him perfectly normal. He asked me to go to Lowes with him one time, to give him some advice on some ceramic tile and wood flooring that he was purchasing. He asked good intelligent question after question. A perfectly normal outing of men interested in the same subject. We spent well over an hour shopping. A day or two later I saw him at the mailbox, and he asked me if I was new in the neighborhood, as he had not seen me before.
Traumatic stress does strange things to people that we cannot begin to understand. Traumatic stress of combat related activities is even worse.
As a nation we have swept this under the rug, hoping it would go away for more than two centuries. We are still sweeping it under the rug. I get somewhat miffed when I hear of combat related stress being equated with incompetence, being drunk, cowardly conduct, and the like, and it usually comes from those who have no clue. Shame on them. Shame.
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Post by chris on Jan 28, 2015 16:27:23 GMT -6
Chuck, do you know if drugs were involved? Damn, that's awful. c.
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Post by Beth on Jan 28, 2015 16:38:07 GMT -6
Chuck, do you know if drugs were involved? Damn, that's awful. c. It is terrible but unfortunately all to common, nor is it a new. As a country the way we handle mental illness is a national tragedy. What does it say about us as people that we through mostly deal with mental illness by throwing them in jail instead of giving them help. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2015 17:00:47 GMT -6
No drugs at all Chris, according to the fire department who were the first responders. An autopsy was conducted, and he was completely clean, as was his wife, of anything but normal medications which were at normal levels. The findings were forwarded to our FD to be included in their incident report, and as you know the Madam signs the firemen's pay checks.
I am fully convinced that in the aftermath of LBH Reno's life turned downhill. Before that I think the record is fairly clear that his personal habits were no better or worse than any other. The stress of combat was clearly evident in some of the actions he took then, and I for one do not blame him one damned bit. The brain splattering followed by the loss of so many effected him greatly, but that does not mean he was a drunk or a coward. His actions during the remainder of the battle speak to a man badly shaken but still in control and functioning in the manner he should.
Failing to recognize this truth, this individual and collective tragedy is the playground of peckerwoods and costumed pretenders and not for rational men and women who understand empathy for those so affected and our duty to recognize and bind up the wounds of mind as we bind those of body.
I suppose I should add an addendum to the story I related. It was a very cold night, and we were at church for the pre-Ash Wednesday pancake supper. Joan is also the FD chaplain, and was called while the incident was ongoing, literally within a minute or two of the shooting. We came home immediately and by he time we got there I had to be escorted to my house, while Joan tended to business with both families that were by then gathering. I immediately put on a few pots of coffee for the sheriff's people who were securing the scene and clearing the area. The three children were sequester in a sheriff's vehicle with a social worker. As the evening went on, the social worker brought the oldest to my front door asking if he could use he bathroom. I of course agreed, and when that child came in I will never forget the look on his face if I live to be a thousand. As I think of it, I can only conclude that what he went through must have been something like, what we are talking about here with Reno.
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Post by Beth on Jan 28, 2015 18:41:50 GMT -6
No drugs at all Chris, according to the fire department who were the first responders. An autopsy was conducted, and he was completely clean, as was his wife, of anything but normal medications which were at normal levels. The findings were forwarded to our FD to be included in their incident report, and as you know the Madam signs the firemen's pay checks. I am fully convinced that in the aftermath of LBH Reno's life turned downhill. Before that I think the record is fairly clear that his personal habits were no better or worse than any other. The stress of combat was clearly evident in some of the actions he took then, and I for one do not blame him one damned bit. The brain splattering followed by the loss of so many effected him greatly, but that does not mean he was a drunk or a coward. His actions during the remainder of the battle speak to a man badly shaken but still in control and functioning in the manner he should. Failing to recognize this truth, this individual and collective tragedy is the playground of peckerwoods and costumed pretenders and not for rational men and women who understand empathy for those so affected and our duty to recognize and bind up the wounds of mind as we bind those of body. I suppose I should add an addendum to the story I related. It was a very cold night, and we were at church for the pre-Ash Wednesday pancake supper. Joan is also the FD chaplain, and was called while the incident was ongoing, literally within a minute or two of the shooting. We came home immediately and by he time we got there I had to be escorted to my house, while Joan tended to business with both families that were by then gathering. I immediately put on a few pots of coffee for the sheriff's people who were securing the scene and clearing the area. The three children were sequester in a sheriff's vehicle with a social worker. As the evening went on, the social worker brought the oldest to my front door asking if he could use he bathroom. I of course agreed, and when that child came in I will never forget the look on his face if I live to be a thousand. As I think of it, I can only conclude that what he went through must have been something like, what we are talking about here with Reno. Geez Chuck, that is even more tragic. You don't forget those types of moments ever. Anyone who has been in a situation when you have seen someone with that expression knows exactly what you mean. Beth
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 28, 2015 19:42:48 GMT -6
One of the saddest things the government did back in the 70's or early 80's, don't remember exactly when, was remove the ability for law enforcement to get a mentally disturbed person committed for evaluation and/or treatment. There were times in my law enforcement career where I would encounter a mentally disturbed person, generally someone who was exhibiting signs of paranoia or disorientation. After making the determination this person probably needed help, I would contact the judge on call, advise him of all my probable cause for commitment, and ask for a warrant. If granted, I could place the person in the mental health pavilion for observation/treatment, and make out a report denoting all the facts around the encounter. Generally, this practice helped a lot of people, some of whom were Vietnam veterans who were trying to cope with the effects of that war. The judges didn't just issue warrants like candy. You really had to convince them commitment was necessary. That, plus the fact the paperwork was a real hassle, kept officers from going the commitment route unless it was really necessary.
Then along came the ACLU and other folks "with good intentions" who convinced the courts that detaining and committing people "merely" on the grounds of mental issues somehow violated their rights. Now, instead of being able to get help for these people, a lot of whom were homeless, we could neither commit them for help or arrest them, even for their own protection. Amarillo, TX, where I was a cop, gets some pretty nasty winters, so these people wound up living on the streets, sometimes dying from exposure, dehydration, malnutrition, you name it. So, instead of getting help, a lot of these people got a pauper's funeral at the county's expense.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2015 19:56:58 GMT -6
Are you still in Amarillo Colt?
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Post by Beth on Jan 28, 2015 19:58:13 GMT -6
One of the saddest things the government did back in the 70's or early 80's, don't remember exactly when, was remove the ability for law enforcement to get a mentally disturbed person committed for evaluation and/or treatment. There were times in my law enforcement career where I would encounter a mentally disturbed person, generally someone who was exhibiting signs of paranoia or disorientation. After making the determination this person probably needed help, I would contact the judge on call, advise him of all my probable cause for commitment, and ask for a warrant. If granted, I could place the person in the mental health pavilion for observation/treatment, and make out a report denoting all the facts around the encounter. Generally, this practice helped a lot of people, some of whom were Vietnam veterans who were trying to cope with the effects of that war. The judges didn't just issue warrants like candy. You really had to convince them commitment was necessary. That, plus the fact the paperwork was a real hassle, kept officers from going the commitment route unless it was really necessary. Then along came the ACLU and other folks "with good intentions" who convinced the courts that detaining and committing people "merely" on the grounds of mental issues somehow violated their rights. Now, instead of being able to get help for these people, a lot of whom were homeless, we could neither commit them for help or arrest them, even for their own protection. Amarillo, TX, where I was a cop, gets some pretty nasty winters, so these people wound up living on the streets, sometimes dying from exposure, dehydration, malnutrition, you name it. So, instead of getting help, a lot of these people got a pauper's funeral at the county's expense. We dealt with the commitment/out thing for years with my aunt. The family would commit her because she was a danger to herself (not others) but after a few days treatment she would no longer be a danger and she would demand to be let out. It was an endless battle for years. The problem with the ACLU's involvement was it threw the baby with the bathwater. There were people who were being held against their will and for no good reason it terrible conditions. There also were people who needed to be held, but recieve better treatment and then there were people who should have been confined in a prison mental hospital not a mental hospital. The ruling just dumped everyone on the street and we have been dealing with it since. You don't need to be in Amarillo to see people die in the cold. When we were living in Palm Beach County a man died of exposure (He basically froze to death) the bushes on the grounds of one of those very expensive Grand Hotels, and surrounded by millionaires and mansions. Of course when they interviewed neighbors, no one knew something like that could happen 'here'. We look back at the survivors of LBh and we read about lives ended in a bottle, or violence. I imagine everyone went away from that battle with their personal demons. I wish there was an answer why some people are able to live on a relatively normal life and why some become like Reno and Weir. Maybe if we knew why, then we could start fixing it or preventing it. Again I will step off that old soap box Beth
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Post by Colt45 on Jan 28, 2015 20:00:27 GMT -6
Are you still in Amarillo Colt? No, I left Amarillo in 1986 and have been in the Dallas area ever since. Family still lives in Amarillo and I go up there 2-3 times a year.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 28, 2015 20:03:40 GMT -6
That's inaccurate, Colt.
There was huge resentment over what was then perceived as a huge expense with taxes paying for the public loony bins, so called. They were presented and advertised as near lawn parties and no over mention of the solitary confinements in disgusting quarters, which was as often the reality as lunch in the garden. There were enough cases of false detentions in them by those wanting control of companies or home or cash to add to the disfavor, and the states could not agree on criteria for detention beyond resenting the expenses.
Also, the revelations of idiotic, dangerous, and sadistic 'treatments' for people, including electric shock and lobotomies (Joe Kennedy had his daughter lobotomized lest she provide an embarrassing incident to hurt a son's political favor.....although that's not what he probably said) because it was convenient but sorta legal. People not actually MD's or judges had amazing authority over others. These were all issues that could have been solved, but the war expense, the space race expense, the civil rights movement (which played into the abolitionist hands)all were at least as responsible as the ACLU, and it was a VERY popular move at the time. The expenses shifted columns to police and jails. And here we are.
Given the shocking number of executions of innocent people revealed in recent decades, it isn't hard to imagine the same mentalities entombing innocents previously without the annoying guilt of murder to cloud their day. This atop the fact that the mentally ill DO have rights as all citizens do. What you say is true, but it is far from accurate to leave it at that.
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