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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2017 16:23:38 GMT -6
Hi Boss it seems to me that a huge myth is that Reno was sent to attack the big village. Custer's orders to Reno are consistent with a major tactical deployment and not a small band action. Keogh and Cook also accompanied Reno some distance which supports a major action. And last but not least Reno's troop configuration is that of a full charge not a skermish. Cheers Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 17, 2017 16:42:57 GMT -6
I am relatively new to this board and not nearly as well read or as knowldgeable as most posters. Since this is a "myth" thread, it seems to me that a huge myth is that Reno was sent to attack the big village. In Darling's General Custer's Final Hours he makes it clear that Reno was sent to attack the lone tepee band of about sixty Indians who were "on the jump" and fleeing at about 2 1/2 miles away. He was to charge them wherever they went and bring them to battle. If you are Reno and are sent after sixty Indians and suddenly come upon a village of 1,900 tepees, what do you do? If Darling is correct, at the point of his being dispatched after that band, neither Reno nor Custer actually knew of the location of the big village. It had to be a big surprise to Reno. Don't have the quote handy but I believe Custer had at least a rough idea of the village's location. Remember as well "charge the village afterwards." Indicating that he was aware that the village was in the general direction of the fleeing 60. GAC was not quite as clueless as some consider him to have been. IMHO his 2 primary failings were 1) heading up the bluffs while communicating nothing to his separated battalion commanders and his inexplicably making little or no attempt to support Reno's fight in the valley. Again, based on my opinion after researching several sources. Best, David
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2017 22:57:39 GMT -6
Hi EDave heading up the bluffs while communicating nothing to his separated battalion commanders . An oversight by Cook? At he time the note was written it did not matter if Benteen went into the valley or on the bluffs. "Ford D" or anything else came after Weir Point and when Custer was descending MTCF for the purpose of attacking across Ford B .It therefore follows that all the action would be in the valley. After Ford B fails a further communication was required to advise Benteen ? I speculate Hurrah Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 17, 2017 23:48:28 GMT -6
Returning to the Myth of the "valley hunting. Some comparative distances If Benteen had favoured a 45degree oblique direction it would have taken him towards Ford A actually rejoining the trail at the junction SFRC. A distance of 5.4 miles. The trail [Custer route] to this point was 5.8 miles. Benteens route was 7.2 miles. There was absolutely no military reason for Benteen's Route/direction of 7.2 miles. He seperated his command an extra unnecessary 2 miles from the main column. Do these two miles constitute dawling ? Are these the two miles which doomed Custer? Thus Benteen's rubbishing of legit orders and the myth of Valley hunting ? Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 18, 2017 4:20:39 GMT -6
Returning to the Myth of the "valley hunting. Some comparative distances If Benteen had favoured a 45degree oblique direction it would have taken him towards Ford A actually rejoining the trail at the junction SFRC. A distance of 5.4 miles. The trail [Custer route] to this point was 5.8 miles. Benteens route was 7.2 miles. There was absolutely no military reason for Benteen's Route/direction of 7.2 miles. He seperated his command an extra unnecessary 2 miles from the main column. Do these two miles constitute dawling ? Are these the two miles which doomed Custer? Thus Benteen's rubbishing of legit orders and the myth of Valley hunting ? Richard Or did Custer point Benteen in the direction taken?
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Post by edavids on Mar 18, 2017 4:35:32 GMT -6
Let's keep in mind that Benteen's primary objective on the side excursion was to find satellite village(s) and to pitch into anything he found sending word at that point. Custer sent not 1 but 2 messengers to extend the scout to 2 additional distant lines of bluffs so at that point there did not seem to be any urgency on Custer's part for Benteen to rejoin the rest of the regiment and no attempt to change Benteen's angle of scout.
Most of your reasoning is legit but this one is looking very "keogh" like; based on 20-20 hindsight and with self interpretations thrown in to back an agenda. At least you keep away from completely made up nonsense such as mindsets and Benteen should have watered at Ford A or rhe note intended for him to support Reno but you are getting closer to that level. You are much better than that, Wild. You are not going to prove your opinion of Benteen to our general population on this board and this is turning into 'ragging' on Benteen's every move and decision. It really is time to move on.
Best,
David
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 18, 2017 7:14:07 GMT -6
Reminds of the movie of the armed robbers in a cop bar.
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Post by wild on Mar 18, 2017 8:30:06 GMT -6
Hi EDave Well observed.
It was all Benteen's fault, it was all Reno's fault ,it was all Custer's fault . In actual fact all three of our heros contributed to the disaster even Terry had an input. There were systemic failures. Failures in planning Failures in communication. Failures in command and control and leadership.
I'v always had a fascination with air accident investigation. And in that business it is a general principal that accidents are not caused by a single failure/error but rather by a number of failures lining up to swamp the failsafe systems.And the "goings on" along the banks of the LBH had more than it's fair share of failings. Custer; going off half cocked , zero planning ,zero briefing Reno ; failure in leadership ie failure to take control of Benteen and his battalion. Benteen ; Failure to communicate and lack of leadership.
You are not going to prove your opinion of Benteen to our general population on this board and this is turning into 'ragging' on Benteen's every move and decision. No one changes their mind here . I actually did and it was used to show that my reasoning was faulty. However I think there are a number of issues that we just accept without question . For example your ; Let's keep in mind that Benteen's primary objective on the side excursion was to find satellite village(s) and to pitch into anything he found sending word at that point. The area over which Benteen was sent could be seen from the Crows nest.Custer scouts would also advise re possibility of subvillage. Also the water supply out there would be non existent and vilibilty was zero and grazing not much better. While a few miles up the way was a serious river and good grazing . There is also a little vignette between Benteen and Custer re this side mission. Everthing considered this opening phase of the battle must be questioned. Remember your "gereral population" who control the narrative have Keogh in reserve and single company actions and such tactical gems. Enough Hurrah Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 18, 2017 9:08:20 GMT -6
Custer saw virtually nothing from the Crow's Nest and finally took his scouts' word that there was a big village and a horse herd out there 12-15 miles away. Agreed that there were plenty of leadership SNAFUs that day but the ultimate accountability falls on Custer's shoulders.
I fault Reno for his, IMHO, inexcusably leaving his command for 30 minutes to search for Hodgson's body. I shake my head over Benteen more for his comments post battle than actions of June 25-27 but the handling of the Weir excursion and failure to have his company dig in the evening of June 25 are questionable at the very least.
I am not stating that our board's general population is inflexible but the responses I see to your Benteen ragging are generally negative to your opinions. I've made adjustments to my thinking based on participating on this board and another and reading. I am very open to the concept that Custer either did nothing or very litle at Ford B and made a beeline for rhe Fords D. I've upgraded this from plausible to possible. Am also not convinced that 3 companies of Keogh battalion were left behind to wait behind for Benteen's arrival.
Best,
David
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Post by wild on Mar 18, 2017 14:14:47 GMT -6
Hi EDave
Custer saw virtually nothing from the Crow's Nest The area which Benteen was to scout was but half the distance to LBH valley and in the line of sight of the LBH valley. If there had been anything remotely like a village his attention would have been drawn to it. So if no villages , for what reason the valley hunting expedition ? [This is all spectulation] Best possible reason is that he was deployed to the flank so that Custer's advance to contact was on a wider front and that his flank was secured all witout losing contact with Custer. Because Benteen lost contact with the main force Reno was employed in this role .
Am also not convinced that 3 companies of Keogh battalion were left behind to wait behind for Benteen's arrival Dont believe it myself but the The Praetorian Guard need a role for him. Hurrah Richard
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Post by edavids on Mar 18, 2017 16:32:47 GMT -6
Is there anyone who has been to the Crow's Nest who can verify that Custerhad a line of sight to the area Benteen scouted? I am from Missouri (the Show Me State) on this one.
Best,
David
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 19, 2017 5:15:45 GMT -6
David,
Been there, line of sight is great, straight line, but you can see nothing beyond the first ridges and hillocks(Benteen's ride). In the direction of the "big village" you can see buses on the road to the Reno Hill area, you can also see the benches beyond the river where the horse herds were. Continue the debate gentlemen.
Regards, Tom
PS If you continue on in Benteen's general direction you will find a high ridge beyond I-90, but he would have passed south of it, had he continued and crossed the river.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2017 7:15:20 GMT -6
Hi David
I think that there was some free commanders time that Reno decided he go to look for his officer. I am not sure he even knew Hodgson was dead. There were stragglers coming up, wounded to be taken care of, and most importantly the horses would need some rest before moving. If Reno set into place everything that needed to be done before he went to look I could see how it happened.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2017 7:31:37 GMT -6
Hi EDave Custer saw virtually nothing from the Crow's NestThe area which Benteen was to scout was but half the distance to LBH valley and in the line of sight of the LBH valley. If there had been anything remotely like a village his attention would have been drawn to it. So if no villages , for what reason the valley hunting expedition ? [This is all spectulation] Best possible reason is that he was deployed to the flank so that Custer's advance to contact was on a wider front and that his flank was secured all witout losing contact with Custer. Here is my speculation. Custer had scouts with him that had been in SFRC and knew it to be a travel corridor. Herendeen had been in a fight with these same Indians in SFRC. Crazy Horse used SFRC when he attacked Crook.
What is clear to anyone looking into the area from the Crows Nest or from the divide is that you cannot see into any of the lower reaches of the drainages. If you move from where Benteen was sent looking for valleys add infinitum at the point he turned as marked on a map by Gibson you end up 5 miles up SFRC or at least on a ledge between Noname and SFRC where you can see to Reno Creek.
What we don't know is how much Herendeen shared with Custer and if he did how much he shared with Benteen. I find it hard to believe that at the site where Herendeen had fight with these Indians that he did not talk with Custer regarding his fight on SFRC. Because Benteen lost contact with the main force Reno was employed in this role .
The angle that Benteen took from the divide was meant to separate him from the main body not parallel it and the distance from the main body would be increasing the further he stayed on route. It took 5 miles approximately to get from Gibson's observation back to
Am also not convinced that 3 companies of Keogh battalion were left behind to wait behind for Benteen's arrivalDont believe it myself but the The Praetorian Guard need a role for him. Hurrah Richard Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 19, 2017 7:37:38 GMT -6
No one changes their mind here . I actually did and it was used to show that my reasoning was faulty.
Richard
It was not used to show your reasoning as faulty it was to show that you made the same arguments as current posters who were attempting to debate. If you made those same arguments as they are attempting now it is apparent to me that you weren't going to change back to your previous position.
Regards
Steve
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