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Post by fred on Feb 18, 2011 10:45:59 GMT -6
For lack of a better place to put this question, I have stuck it here, figuring after an answer or two the thread will quickly disappear.
Does anyone know the location of the "beaver dam"?
I suspect it is between Ford B and the Deep Ravine crossing, but I am unsure.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Feb 18, 2011 12:31:09 GMT -6
I just know from Benteen's description. For now I'd like to put it down from the mouth of the actual MTC drainage and before the Real bird crossing. Basically between MTC and Deep Coulee. That's my speculation for now although it could be further up or down river.
Beaver dams cause water to back up and then you have a deep pool behind them. The LBH has enough water flow that there would be a long and deep pool behind it. Something that slows the flow down but may be deeper than you would want to cross. Maybe an area to move over from if you came up on it.
Eventually fast flowing water will bypass a beaver dam during a period of heavy rain and then begin cutting a new river bank. That moves the river over.
I would hazard a guess that the flat areas below retreat ford and deep ravine that are east of the river could be the remnants of a beaver dam pool after the river moved away from the bluffs in that area. The pools would allow dirt washing down the bluffs to stop and collect.
Add ford B to the list of places to walk and check out.
bc
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Post by blaque on Feb 25, 2011 7:30:35 GMT -6
bc,
I agree with you as to the probable location of the dam, although I don’t share Moving Robe’s belief that the depth of the river above the dam dissuaded Custer from getting across. Curiously, there was apparently another beaver dam near Ford A. Gerard found it on the night of the 25th, when with his three companions he failed to find the ford “and had a narrow escape from drowning” in the deep water (letter to his daughters, July 6, 1876). He believed that, when the group unexpectedly clashed with some Indians at the river, it was the loud noise made by a lot of scared beavers splashing into the water what saved the lives of DeRudio and O’Neill, allowing them to hide among the bushes undetected.
Jose
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Post by bc on Feb 25, 2011 11:05:24 GMT -6
bc, I agree with you as to the probable location of the dam, although I don’t share Moving Robe’s belief that the depth of the river above the dam dissuaded Custer from getting across. Curiously, there was apparently another beaver dam near Ford A. Gerard found it on the night of the 25th, when with his three companions he failed to find the ford “and had a narrow escape from drowning” in the deep water (letter to his daughters, July 6, 1876). He believed that, when the group unexpectedly clashed with some Indians at the river, it was the loud noise made by a lot of scared beavers splashing into the water what saved the lives of DeRudio and O’Neill, allowing them to hide among the bushes undetected. Jose Jose, I was thinking that DeRudio recrossed further downriver from Retreat ford. If he is referring to Derudio's initial hiding from the NAs in the timber, then it would be between the timber fight and Retreat ford. Either way, that would put a third beaver dam in the works. My gut tells me that the beaver dams so described are near creek junctions as they flow into the LBH. bc
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 25, 2011 12:36:30 GMT -6
Really? You actually believe that a beaver dam and/or lodge would survive the nearby presence of thousands of beaver pelt lovers in need of firewood, food, and lodgepoles for, well, lodges and wikiups? We actually believe this? I could understand the remnants of a older dam surviving for a bit, the wood being too wet, but come on. "A lot of scared beavers....." still there by the 25th? ? That's not remotely plausible anymore than a small herd of bison surviving around the base of Weir Point's west side.
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Post by blaque on Mar 1, 2011 6:45:54 GMT -6
Jose, I was thinking that DeRudio recrossed further downriver from Retreat ford. If he is referring to Derudio's initial hiding from the NAs in the timber, then it would be between the timber fight and Retreat ford. Either way, that would put a third beaver dam in the works. bc, Gerard and his companions first tried to find the retreat crossing, but the many dead bodies made the horses snort, and lest they were discovered the four decided to move up river, trying to find Ford A. It was near this ford that they met some Indians and Gerard and Jackson rode away, abandoning DeRudio and O’Neill on foot. But after reading again Gerard’s interview as reproduced in the Cincinnati Daily Gazette of July 13th, 1876, I must point out that Gerard didn’t see any dam or hear any beavers –it was DeRudio who told him on June 27th that the noise made by beavers splashing in the water helped them to move through the thickets undetected by their pursuers until they found a good hiding place. O’Neill, however, told Camp on 1919 that the 10 Indians or so they met at the river bank were probably as frightened as themselves, because they fled across the river. If the trooper was right, then the noise of splashing water would have been made by Indian ponies jumping into the river. It’s not unlikely that DeRudio saw beavers terrified in the midst of that mess, but I suspect that out of his fear, or perhaps for the thrilling of his story, he ignored the flight of the Indians and assumed that all that noise had been made by the beavers. If he was right (and was not confounding ponies with beavers!) it’s not unlikely that there was a beaver dam close by Ford A, almost 3 miles from the upper village. What I’d find harder to believe –as pointed out by DC– is that there was a dam near the retreat crossing, or that Moving Robe’s dam could have survived so close to the Cheyenne & Minneconjou villages –unless it was allowed to stand just to provide the villagers with an easy fording place. Jose
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 1, 2011 8:54:50 GMT -6
Beavers were eaten, the pelts were valuable and useful. Their oil glands valuable as well. The great engineer does not need to breathe so that his dam could be used for a sort of bridge. But using a dam to cross is very risky and not unlikely to break limbs in a misstep. In winter, maybe. Not in summer. It wasn't necessary.
Thousands of lodges going up and all those ready to go lodge pole sized, eh, lodge poles in a dam would be ignored out of PC concern for the beavers? I find it hard to believe that anything like that survived long at all.
One dam - one beaver lodge upriver. That's how it works. Sometimes several lodges depending upon the size of the pond the dam makes. A close sequence of dams is unlikely.
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Post by blaque on Mar 2, 2011 11:01:50 GMT -6
I’m glad to put a funny end to this silly discussion on “DeRudio’s Beaver Band”. While looking through my papers to find further corroboration to the Lieutenant’s story, I discovered that on the same date that this news was published in the Cincinnati Gazette (13 July ‘76), the New York Evangelist did likewise, but in a more accurate fashion:
“He rushed for the river and dropped from a steep bank, and a number of BRAVES, frightened by the rush of the other Indians and the volley, also scrambled from the thicket to the river, and in the confusion which followed DeRudio managed to escape with his life”.
Bearing in mind O’Neill’s version of the story, it’s easy to detect the typo made by the Gazette or his correspondent –beavers for braves!
Jose
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 2, 2011 13:31:31 GMT -6
You give in too quickly. Surely, this pointless....point about beavers can be drawn out as long as Benteen's Dawdling.
Good to end with an example of how much faith to put in newspaper accounts derived from god knows who, where, and when. The LBH Area 51 Beaver Construction Brigade can now be consigned to the dustbin of journalism.
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Post by Melani on Mar 19, 2011 2:23:13 GMT -6
There certainly may have been a beaver dam, but the beavers weren't necessarily still in it. And if they were, their pelts wouldn't have been worth skinning in the summer.
Given his probable state of mind, I'm sure DeRudio was capable of confusing beavers with ponies. Also, the journalists of the day were not noted for their accuracy.
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