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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 30, 2010 8:52:21 GMT -6
From a friend: I just had a question from someone wanting to know if the names of civilians killed by Indians is listed. She had a relative who was a former Union Naval officer who moved to Arizona "probably during the 1870s." Apparently he was a rancher and both he and his family were killed. I would think they could check post returns from the various Army reports but they would either have to check all or she would need to know the area where the family lived. Also newspapers would probably have listed the names but again, where did they live? She doesn't seem to know any of that. Anyway, I wondered if you knew of any such info. Any ideas?
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Post by markland on Jun 30, 2010 9:12:53 GMT -6
From a friend: I just had a question from someone wanting to know if the names of civilians killed by Indians is listed. She had a relative who was a former Union Naval officer who moved to Arizona "probably during the 1870s." Apparently he was a rancher and both he and his family were killed. I would think they could check post returns from the various Army reports but they would either have to check all or she would need to know the area where the family lived. Also newspapers would probably have listed the names but again, where did they live? She doesn't seem to know any of that. Anyway, I wondered if you knew of any such info. Any ideas? Diane, likely post returns would not indicate anything beyond raids occurred and whether or not civilian casualties occurred. Like you said, more info is needed. There is one source which may be helpful: southwest.library.arizona.edu/This is the online library for the University of Arizona. I would suggest she look through the volumes of The History of Arizona by Farish. There are a lot of references to Indian depredations mentioned in those volumes including names of civilians killed. She may also want to try Thrapp's Conquest of Apacheria or Cozzen's Eyewitnesses to the Indian Wars: The Conquest of Apacheria. And as you mentioned, if she could find a locale, the local paper would likely have some reference to it, assuming there was a local paper. Another source might be Bob Alexander's Six-Guns and Single-Jacks: A History of Silver City and Southwestern New Mexico. While this deals primarily with New Mexico, there are references to civilian deaths which occurred near the AZ-NM border. Shoot me a name and I'll see if I have anything in the PFH section on civilans or if Eric Johnson has anything. Be good, Billy P.S. Don't forget to baste DC's next road kill surprise in that free oil down your way!
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jun 30, 2010 20:13:18 GMT -6
Thanks for the great suggestions, Billy. I'll try to get a name for you.
I like your basting idea! The way things are going down here, I can also send DC a slick, black dessert of fish or fowl.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 1, 2010 9:48:13 GMT -6
On the Border with Crook by adjutant Bourke chats up a number of civilian deaths which might be of interest. Also, it's a terrific book anyway. I'm imagining a hurricane sloshing oil all along the coast and inland from NO to the Keys, and then the inevitable coastal/tidal grass fires of summer, common in my day, finding it. How do you fight that fire? Cannot get that issue out of view. I spent years on the white beaches of Florida and feeding off the Gulf and to imagine it as smelling and looking like the scuppers of a Boston Whaler with a leaking gas tank infuriates and nauseates me equally. I want blood. I want big oil to keep its past promises about worst case scenario preparation with painful sanctions for having lied. I want all enabling and financing legislation to be one, so politicos cannot say to one constituency they voted for and to another voted against something. If we have government regulators, give them the money to do the job so we don't rely on industry flacks for info and skill, but let's no longer have pretend regulation and enforcement by those looking to be employed by the very industry they're overseeing. Government cannot afford to be a shadow party of emergency equipment redundancy to every industry in order to compensate for their lies (and lies for their own immense profit) at need. If people put their personal profit ahead of the financial or environmental security of this country and willfully and recklessly endanger it, I see no distinction between that and treason. Happy 4th. And speaking of Arizona..... www.politico.com/news/stories/0610/39240.html
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 1, 2010 11:49:46 GMT -6
I'm going to break my own rule against contemporary politics because I am outraged by the whole mess.
It's all politics. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and the Florida Panhandle all voted for McCain by large margins (Obama won Florida by a narrow margin because of South Florida) and, until Crist defected, all four states had Republican Governors. If we were a "blue" region, we'd have half the world down here crying for us.
If Bush were President under the same circumstances, he would be hounded daily for incompetence. The President can fire the head of GM but he can't override the Jones Act to have allowed other countries to help? The skimmers needed to be inspected to make sure they had life preservers on board so they were pulled from cleaning up the mess?
If you think this doesn't affect those of you in the north and you can stick your head in the sand -- someplace where there aren't tar balls -- just wait. This is one time I fully agreed with James Carville when he said, "We're about to die down here!"
Regarding Gov. Brewer, she is another beautiful, intelligent, strong-willed woman who must be destroyed. I wish Florida had a governor like her rather than our phoney orange-tanned, limp noodle.
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Post by darkmoon on Jul 1, 2010 14:19:59 GMT -6
Am I reading this right? If one person, any person, be they pauper, prince or king - places their "personal" interest ahead of this nations financial or environmental security interests, whereby it would willfully and recklessly endanger it, that this "one person" should be tried for "treason"?
Diane, I feel your pain. The Gulf States, especially their beaches were beautiful. And Florida, what can one say about the U.S.'s only place on the continent that could be classified as "paradise". I can't imagine all of what's there ruined by someone's incompetence. I read somewhere, where those wonderful aquifers that supply all the drinking water were thought to be endangered now.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 1, 2010 14:38:11 GMT -6
It's not politics. New Orleans ain't McCain Country. The President only had a say in GM because they went under and begged for a bailout, which was granted, so he represented ownership. He had that power solely because of that. With $20 billion as lunch money to BP, they weren't so strained.
Besides, as Limbaugh initially said, this oil is as natural as the water, this happens all the time, and the feds should back off and let the pros do the work. Remember? Hayley Barbour didn't seem excited initially either and resented federal insertion. Governors wanted federal money, but they'd take care of it. Only as it became clear BP was lying and full of it and they now blame........Obama? Because they now realize whoever is in charge, we're dependent upon the oil companies, big state employers they want the feds to dis so they won't have to deal with the blowback if they do.
Most of the supposedly denied solutions are little better than dropping toilet paper rolls the size of Rhode Island to sop it up. They're designed for smaller - much, much smaller - spills, and not unhampered gushers a mile down. No offense, Kevin Costner.
There is doubt that the offered service from foreign companies and government was real life or posturing or relevant time wise to the gulf, because BP assured everyone that it would be fixed momentarily at first. If they were all good as you suggest, and Obama had done it, people would complain about sovereignty issues and refuse to admit that the very LAST thing the various oil companies or the states wanted was foreign intervention. I agree: so what and tough s___. But, you're not addressing that BP had laid a sequential series of lies from the beginning: they had zero preparation for this. Turns out, none of the companies do.
It's not like the government has equal expertise and separate equipment; it does not. Oil had the money to do it right and safely with lots of profit (it's risky; they deserve it) but they tried to do it somewhat cheaper and screwed up. BP does this a lot, it seems.
The media is covering this 24/7 with cams on the leak, annoying celebrities are all over it, and it would hardly be different if it happened, as it might, off Hilton Head or Martha's Vinyard. The water up there is cold and rougher than the Gulf, and I don't see what else could be done there for the Kennedy compound area that they aren't doing down south. Of course, the currents would take it away from the coast to England and Europe, who'd really enjoy it. "Skimming" in the rough water of the North Atlantic is notional.
Weren't the states supposed to have all this protective gear, booms and buoy lines and stuff? Weren't the feds supposed to make sure everyone did what was required?
Ironically, Bush MIGHT have handled this better, insofar as he would have known - as a sorta/kinda oilman - that BP was full of it and unprepared and they were lying. But to act sooner or different, he'd have to violate everything that the GOP supposedly holds dear and not demand 'accountability' and force big government on the people. There is a huge - huge - difference between what blowhards were saying at the beginning and saying now.
Governor Brewer lies a lot. Her own state government agencies do not back up her recent assertions. And, in reflection of those who lie about their military experience, she may have lied about her father's. Supposedly, there is video, but we'll see. Neither does McCain support her assertions.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 2, 2010 10:42:53 GMT -6
Thanks, darkmoon. I'm not sure about the aquifers, but it's being reported that oil -- not just tar balls -- is washing up on our beaches now because the water was stirred up by the hurricane. DC, I disagree with you on almost every count, but I'm not going to get in a battle with you. I've expressed my opinions and will let them stand. Diane [Later] I've changed my mind and will comment on your first paragraph. Perhaps I'll comment more later, but I don't want a battle. I'm at the point in life where I just accept my friends for who they are, warts and all. I think all of your warts qualify you as a full-fledged toad, dear DC. In case you haven't noticed, there is more to Louisiana than New Orleans, and your descriptions of the GM takeover and the BP shakedown are pure fiction. Open your mind a bit. It's ALL politics.
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Post by Melani on Jul 5, 2010 21:17:41 GMT -6
Strangely enough, I am astonished to find that in this case I agree with at least 95% of what dc said. And I especially like the part of BP's emergency plan for the Gulf that covers how to deal with walruses...
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Post by darkmoon on Jul 5, 2010 23:54:54 GMT -6
Diane don't take her bait. She just wants The Shootout - a 24 hour, Boulder classic sensation, complete with all the trimmings at the film festival.
The next thing you know she'll be rolling out a new plant ecology plan to clean up the oil spill in the Gulf because Obama proposes it - and of course he gets the idea from his own dog. And quite naturally, its mostly classified top secret, and supposedly what no one else can get. A man by the name of Murphy prepared dog poop maps and you know the rest of the story... By association to the oil spill Obama gets a brilliant plan and...Eureka! Its as simple as that. Sadly most who believe this kind of stuff are blind as bats and just as deaf, and devote way to much of their lives to scratching where it does not itch. And as DC should tell you, is about as worthless as the Prarie Dog Statues GNU builds to venerate "varmits" that should be exterminated.
Feeling a little "exposed" there Melani on your bike ride from Kansas to Boulder? Another classic held not to far from Westminster, where you could ride your bike and feel the breeze and openly express your opinion about cars - or better yet - "oil". Of course its sponsored by Brn and not Gnu - so it may not please DC very much, depending.... Oh look Toto! Were not in Kansas anymore!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jul 6, 2010 10:24:06 GMT -6
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Post by Melani on Jul 6, 2010 16:55:06 GMT -6
Diane don't take her bait. She just wants The Shootout - a 24 hour, Boulder classic sensation, complete with all the trimmings at the film festival. The next thing you know she'll be rolling out a new plant ecology plan to clean up the oil spill in the Gulf because Obama proposes it - and of course he gets the idea from his own dog. And quite naturally, its mostly classified top secret, and supposedly what no one else can get. A man by the name of Murphy prepared dog poop maps and you know the rest of the story... By association to the oil spill Obama gets a brilliant plan and...Eureka! Its as simple as that. Sadly most who believe this kind of stuff are blind as bats and just as deaf, and devote way to much of their lives to scratching where it does not itch. And as DC should tell you, is about as worthless as the Prarie Dog Statues GNU builds to venerate "varmits" that should be exterminated. Feeling a little "exposed" there Melani on your bike ride from Kansas to Boulder? Another classic held not to far from Westminster, where you could ride your bike and feel the breeze and openly express your opinion about cars - or better yet - "oil". Of course its sponsored by Brn and not Gnu - so it may not please DC very much, depending.... Oh look Toto! Were not in Kansas anymore! No, not feeling exposed at all, but you should be. I don't buy the hypothesis you posed on the other board about Obama causing the oil spill on purpose to create an outcry for a ban on drilling, and I don't appreciate being insulted, by you or anyone else. And especially after all of your own outcry about being insulted yourself by other folks. I just don't understand this degree of venom--do you own oil stock or something?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jul 6, 2010 19:57:31 GMT -6
Strangely enough, I am astonished to find that in this case I agree with at least 95% of what dc said. And I especially like the part of BP's emergency plan for the Gulf that covers how to deal with walruses... If you would read DC carefully and -- if possible -- with a sense of humor rather than take everything as a personal insult, I think you would find yourself agreeing with him quite often. I'll make you a deal, Melani. When the BIG one hits SF and tens of thousands of people are without jobs or hope, I won't make stupid seal jokes if you will now quit making stupid walrus jokes about our horrible situation.
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Post by Melani on Jul 6, 2010 22:50:19 GMT -6
Unfortunately, it's not a stupid walrus joke: www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-05-17-oil-spill-gulf_N.htmHere is the final paragraph, in case you don't scroll down far enough: "Parts of the document read like boilerplate used by BP from region to region and underscore the company's inability to prepare for a major spill in deep water, said Rick Steiner, a former University of Alaska marine scientist who has reviewed the plan. In a section titled "Sensitive Biological & Human-Use Resources," the plan says "seals, sea otters and walruses" could be impacted by a Gulf of Mexico spill — even though no such animals live in the Gulf." In addition, the guy who was supposed to be contacted in case of emergency died in 2005. They clearly need to update a bit.
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Post by Melani on Jul 6, 2010 22:55:35 GMT -6
For the record, I lived in South Florida for ten years. I am no happier than you over what's happening.
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