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Post by rgthomas on Oct 11, 2011 15:43:42 GMT -6
The attached Custer Battlefield Preservation Committee map published in 2002 (it is the latest one I have - sorry) shows the land then owned by the CBPC (note the Dyck land in blue as we discussed yesterday). The booklet about a great walk around covered lots of the CBPC land that was thought to be significant, at least then, for battle history. More land has been acquired over the last decade. The Dyck land and part of the adjacent CBPC land is where the new visitor center is proposed. Back in 2003 or 2004 I forget which, Father Vince Heier collector extraordinaire had a photograph of the old entrance road with the markers clearly in sight along it. A retired NPS Ranger at the National Monument is the one who told us of them and the ones by Putt's place. For what it's worth. Regards, Rod... Enjoy! Attachments:
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Post by Margaret on Oct 11, 2011 16:59:33 GMT -6
Hi Rod,
just to catch you before you disappear for a week or so, I hope you have a lovely time with your family, but to say thanks so much for those files which I've downloaded and will look at tomorrow when I have more time. Some of it I find I am already familiar with but I didn't know about the Yellow Haired Woman. I will discuss these further with you later on, Woman Chief in particular. I'm very grateful.
I also have another question on your return about a piece of ledger art from the Nebraska State Historical Society and I need you to have a look at it, I expect you'll know of it, but there is something puzzling me very much about it.
speak again soon, Margaret
hi Shan, Oh I didn't realise you already had so many books on the subject and Rod's too. In his absence I might have to ask you one or two things.
talk shortly, Margaret
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 12, 2011 4:04:01 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, your take on this Battle is refreshing and the time lines give us another take on this area of the battle, I know that the Officers and men on Weir Peak’s, would have been able to observe the demise of Calhoun if they got their 3:15, I remember Dark Cloud posting a link to the film ‘’Little Big Men’’ and he pointed out to me the volume of dust and smoke created by only a few horse’s and men, they did kick up a huge amount if I remember, so maybe you are right about the Smoke and dust shrouding the area from view, Weir would have had a hard time discerning who was who in the Keogh sector. Ian.
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Post by Margaret on Oct 12, 2011 7:16:50 GMT -6
Perhaps someone here can help with this. I've emailed the Nebraska State Historical Society about it, but no reply as yet. This book linked to here:- www.amazon.com/Nebraska-Indian-Wars-Reader-1865-1877/dp/0803287496....I have in my collection and it's a very good one in fact, but I am trying to find out the approximate date of the ledger art on the front cover. On the back cover it just tells us that it is shown courtesy of the NSHS but no artists name or date given. It might be something done in the 1990's but trying to appear historic, for all I know, but I'd like to think it was of the 1880's or thereabouts. Thank you Margaret
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Post by shan on Oct 12, 2011 8:38:12 GMT -6
Margaret,
I have that book myself albeit with a different cover and yes the book is very good indeed. As to the cover, well, I must have looked through thousands of pieces of ledger art and I have to say I've never seen it before. It looks very interesting but I would hazard a guess that it is fairly recent rather 1880s I say that because of the rather knowing way the second line of horses have been laid out with the eye level being one that floats above the action rather than being on the same level as the participants as is almost universal with ledger art
In the absence of Rod who may have more knowledge on the subject, could I point you in the direction of the PILA, Plains Indian ledger art site. They have up to 60 Ledger books on sale, only a few of which deal with more contemporary art, and 18 ledgers I think which you can browse through at your leisure. I'm more than happy to answer what questions I can on the subject, although I have to confess that my main reason for buying all the books I have is primarily because I just love the artwork. { apologies to DC, but art is often in the eye of the beholder}, That said, a little knowledge can't but help filter through as one peruses the pages, so ask away.
If you fear that we may bore everyone else to death feel free to click my name on the side square and post your questions there.
Shan
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Post by Margaret on Oct 12, 2011 14:04:53 GMT -6
Thank you Shan and a great observation there. I did wonder about it, something wasn't looking quite right, but I shall wait to hear some more from the Society first. Conversely, if it is a modern take on historic art, whoever did it went to some trouble over those nostrils and the boots with the spurs. However, what caught my eye and what is bothering me a little are the markings on the lead horse, particularly the one on his front shoulder. If you turn it upside down it appears to be 2 tipi's, if so then the tipi's have been drawn inverted. A telling hidden message if this is the case.
I shall check this PILA site and see what's on there.
cheers Margaret
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Post by fred on Oct 12, 2011 18:33:14 GMT -6
Ian,
Never minimize the effect dust and smoke had on this battle. An understanding of where and when it would have been encountered helps in understanding a lot more than most people think. To me, there are two very important things people overlook: dust and smoke is one, and the second is that events occurred simultaneously, not one-by-one. An example of the latter is that Custer didn't sit idly by while Keogh was being butchered, but Custer had his own issues at that identical time.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by rgthomas on Oct 12, 2011 20:43:26 GMT -6
Gang! When I finally "retired-retired" last June I essentially went off the mobile grid. I've always traveled with a company connnection/air card so actually connecting via wifi on the road without any of those gadgets is a great surprise! In any case, suggest you check an Arapahoe ledger book/pieces of an Arapahoe ledger "collected/requested" by a Ben Clark. Sorry but I don't have all my stuff from my desk top with me (an external harddrive is next!). This has all the characteristics of Southern Plains portrayals so should start there. I'd also suspicion Fort Marion art work as well. I'll know better when back on the "mainframe" and have hardcopy books at hand. I may or may not have this art in my collection but we'll have to see.
Great day in Northern California...Mount Shasta was out in all its magnificence.
Please have a great day...regards, Rod...
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Post by Yan Taylor on Oct 13, 2011 6:22:54 GMT -6
Yes Fred, I agree that Custer and Yates where under pressure when they encountered warriors coming different directions around the south skirmish line area, this could have coincided with the Calhoun Ridge battle coming to a close and Keogh getting overwhelmed in the swale, when the Custer wing (or just the HQ and F Company) finally did get up on LSH, they then must off met up with Keogh survivors coming over from Custer ridge. Another point about Custer sitting idly by, comes from Indian accounts of the Troopers waiting for 15 / 20 minutes in this area, if Custer or Smith was wounded trying find another ford, maybe it was this pause they used to treat the wounded and reorganise the command, I suppose E Company getting allegedly hit by the suicide boys didn’t help matters. Ian.
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Post by Margaret on Oct 13, 2011 12:27:56 GMT -6
Hi Rod, Shan and anyone else who may be interested, Pleased to hear you're having a great time Rod and thanks for looking in whilst away. I noted your comments and I have been going through some ledger art on various sites but to no avail when I got this reply today from the Nebraska State Historical Society. I have to say I was most impressed by the speed of response and information contained and wrote back to tell them of my appreciation. I shall quote the email here for any interested reader:- "This artwork is from a ledger believed to have been collected by Major William Henry Keeling. It appears on page 25 of the ledger. The book cover is actually a mirrored image of the drawing. Although we do not know exactly when it was collected I can tell you a bit about Major Keeling.
Keeling was born in Highgate, Vermont in 1836. He came west in 1855, surveying the line between Kansas and Nebraska. He went to Texas in 1859, and remained there until the outbreak of the Civil War. He served with the 13th US Infantry, enlisting out of Dubuque, Iowa. From 1862-1865 he served with the battalion that was General Sherman's bodyguard. In the late 1860s, he was stationed at western army posts, including Camp Cooke and Fort Leavenworth. From 1867 t o 1868 he was in the revenue department and for two years was in partnership with major J.E. Burbank in the general merchandise business. He disposed of the business in 1872 and went to Fort Leavenworth, where he was a post trader until 1886. He was later in the general merchandise business in Falls City.
In 1925 the Keeling collection was given to Arbor Lodge in Nebraska City. Their records for the collection listed a “Book of Indian drawings, history of the Nez Perces Indians”. This may be the entry for this ledger.
This ledger was later transferred to the Nebraska State Historical Society from Arbor Lodge and theorized to be the Keeling ledger. According to our file, some researchers believe that this ledger is Cheyenne. The artist is unidentified"here is the link to the Plains Ledger Art website, plate 31 showing the original work in question, which places it amongst the Northern Cheyenne:- plainsledgerart.org/plates/view/351#On the 'Provenance' section on that page it goes on to say:- "It is likely that the ledger book was collected at Camp Cooke, Montana in 1866-67".It looks reminiscent of 'Washita' to me, but regardless of that I feel it goes some way to confirm something I said earlier about inverted objects referring to death, or in this case impending death. I can't see it could mean anything else in the mind of the artist as I'm sure now those are definitely 2 tipi's drawn upside down on the front shoulder of the lead horse. Turning it the wrong way up you can even see a pole or rope tied to the right hand tipi and pegged to the ground which I think they did to give it support. Margaret
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Post by shan on Oct 13, 2011 15:18:47 GMT -6
Margaret,
just a quickie but I think you'll find that theose marks on th horses are brand marks, the one on the lead horse being a W.
Shan
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Post by Margaret on Oct 13, 2011 16:07:52 GMT -6
When I first looked, I saw 'W', and whilst I have to defer to your sharper eye and greater knowledge, I'm not yet convinced. I wonder now if those markings on the horses rump are brand marks but strangely, when turned the other way, they look like hills or peaks. Perhaps I'm looking for something that isn't there... Oh I expect you're right... later edit:- I've just been looking up brand marks for the period and I have to concede. How alert of the Indian to include such detail.... more observant than me, obviously
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Post by rgthomas on Oct 14, 2011 11:23:27 GMT -6
Margaret, thanks...yes - stock brands. Lots of branded horses and mules in the art. The NSHS is a great organization and has lots of "stuff" like this. 1866-67-68: Besides the Southern Plains campaign there was also the Powder River affair (Fetterman, Wagon Box, Crazy Woman Creek, etc.) so action there as well is possible.
Unless you have a higher resolution image than I at the moment, we can't really see the shoulder fired weapon the officer is carrying. First glance reminds me of a Springfield carbine (1873) but could also be a Spencer repeater from the Civil War era. If Springfield then 1873 and later. If Spencer suggests timeframe 1863 to 1873 at least for Regular Army. Militia units might have carried the Spencer but not much past the early 1870s.
A better image will also answer horse tack questions such as the stirrups (note what appear to be flared toe covers), bridles, saddles, etc.
This all helps to approximate date, etc.
The livestock brands were recorded in every state. Once the brand owner is located, sales to the military could possibly be tracked and that would help narrow down units, locations, etc.
Fun stuff. 99 degrees in LA today. Hope all is well and have a great time digging into this one.
Regards, Rod...
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Post by Margaret on Oct 15, 2011 9:01:50 GMT -6
Hi Rod,
I've been looking at both those rifles you mention and if I had to guess, I would say it's more like the Spencer repeater than the Springfield carbine, as the former was a much shorter rifle apparently and the artist has drawn what looks like a short stubby type. It says [on Wikipedia] the Spencer Carbine was a shorter and lighter version of this, so perhaps that's the one. I think this would also fit in with the date this drawing was considered to have been done i.e. mid 1860's.
I find those flared toe covers quite odd, I didn't know they had such things. It's quite interesting when you get into it.
I spent a weekend in L.A once - Venice Beach was fun as I recall, and I saw where Elizabeth Taylor lived. All very nice around there.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 15, 2011 14:27:41 GMT -6
Col. Thomas,
Got the book a few days ago - and thank you for that - and it's certainly a beautiful volume.
You mention early on that a mid-20th century historian thought Sitting Bull went to West Point, and your footnote references Crimsoned Prairie by SLA Marshall. At the library today, because I didn't recall that from when I read it, hot off the "presses" of that nice Mr. Gutenberg, I looked up the book to see who he meant. Because there was no page number, just the book, I assumed you meant SLA Marshall thought SB went to West Point, which I found hard to believe, given he was the Army Historian for WWII and Korea, both, I think. In any case, I didn't recall that.
West Point wasn't in the index, so I went to the pages for Sitting Bull and couldn't find mention of that. I did NOT check every page, and indexes can be iffy, but I'm curious if you're sure about that and if you were referencing Marshall. If so, where does he say that?
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