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Post by herosrest on Sept 12, 2009 17:03:31 GMT -6
There was nought that went wrong at that battle, it didn't work out for blue. The army had a bad day. The campaign they undertook was poorly funded, poorly equipped, understrength and over extended. It's supply lines were a nightmare and the opposition ferocious will o' the wisps and by June that year, just spoiling for a fight.
There's a certain amount of fiasco to every battle, it seems, and whatever percentage you agree to, when subtracted from the LBH, Benteen especially - but even Reno - don't look any worse (or better) than many officers whose careers prospered, then and certainly now. That is amongst the fairest assessments of events within the 7th Cavalry that l have seen.
As soon as the battle completed, it morphed. Because of the National celebration taking place, the pressing concerns and albeit near panic to open that frontier for development and exploitation of resources and the political climate, a galvanising defeat, unexpected by all save those in the front line, was dissected publicly and became an intensly argued matter.
Frederick Whittaker for reasons l doubt will ever be completely understood, went nuts with those final chapters of his book. He claimed betrayal and pointed a crooked finger in very public fashion. Little is known of Keogh's views before the battle, comment from Benteen suggests he accepted intelligence and understood the job was too big for the force at hand. Reno attacked, confidently and found a disaster, Custer pushed it and his command was wiped out. During the seige, the companies held on and survived.
A huge game of fairy tales ensued as each and varied interests found themselves in limelight or avoided it. It endured, Gray helped bed it down but there was more to Gray than the veneer of wow! ain't this great.
That Custer went on a slow poking meander into the valley where he met his death, knowing that was where his target lay and did so, against a numerially superior force able to meet him certainly stronger than 1 to 1, with only 60% of his effective force committed is not true. With all the intelligence in the world, real time 360° and over head, Custer would still have attacked, once he decided that was what was required. Gray did not assess that correctly. There are problems with the detail and interpretation of some photo's discussed, maps of the time are denigrated, people such as Norris ignored and genuine interest mocked.
There is a problem with the elevations in those pictures, range, distance, YT, call it what you like. Oh look.... l know that picture it's..... well look again, properly.
There were loops upstream of Deep Ravine.
Like it or not, the bold text is easier to read without having to squint up to a screen, which will eventually make you blind. The silver color is easier ont eye, cuts glare.
Whoops..l did it again.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 15, 2009 16:58:52 GMT -6
Tongue River Barracks. July 18, 1877.
10:00 - Officers of the garrison pay their official respects to General Terry aboard the new river steamboat Rosebud.
18:00 - 5th Infantry held Dress Parade and review on the plain near the post. While companies stood on parade to pass in review before General Sherman, 30 enlisted men were called by name from the ranks, marched to the front and center accompanied by colors and upon the breast of each General Sherman pinned a Medal of Honor, awarded for gallantry during the preceding winter.
22:00 - Generals Sherman and Terry bade farewell Tongue River, Captain Marsh took the steamer Rosebud to Little Big Horn, where thirteen months earlier he lay waiting for Reno's wounded.
600 yards above the mouth were camped four companies of the 11th Inf. under Maj G. P. Buell. On high ground frameworks of substantial buildings were under construction since July 1st. Across the mouth of the Little Big Horn a boom stretched with hundreds of logs floating behind it, a saw-mill close to the bank busily cut the lumber. In the timbered valley beyond wood-cutters felled yet more timber for the structures which were to become Fort Custer.
At this point, General Sherman said good-bye to General Terry and Captain Marsh. Escorted by a troop of the 7th Cavalry, sent up from Tongue River Barracks, he departed for Fort Ellis overland, passing around to view the Custer battleground on his way.
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Post by herosrest on Oct 27, 2013 14:08:56 GMT -6
Because it isn't allowed to argue on the Independent Research Thread, that can happen here. To recap: 1. herosrest claims a photo of LSH is really of Calhoun Hill. This despite clear photographic evidence he provides matches the topographical map of LSH's west flank. 2. he claims a ravine wall is really a building, man made, a structure hundreds of feet long by the LBH in the years right after the battle. 3. he claims Gray.....well, here's what he said last. You are playing - not sure what at, though. What have the last several decades of reclassification and abysmal attempts to regulate (what was perfectly well understood 130+ years ago), got to do with my topic. Stop ramming your gospel down my throat.
Gray's work is more than flawed.. he was too bright, seriously clever to make the errors he made. The disciplines he instilled are techniques, to study and analyse, to provide concrete and repeatable tests for experiment. Provide a theory and here are the tools to test it. What he then did, was take a completely preposterous outline, that had been put forward previously and offered it as an example to test upon. He was a seriously clever guy trying to show people interested in the fact of what happened, how to deal with the matter themselves, rather than rely on the partisan schisms which mean you cant believe one if the other says something different. It's about people and the layer upon layer of doings they did. Science is schmaltz, a tool, and look what rigor brings to the field......... mortis. Get off my case. Gray made the error of thinking all of us think as he did - it is blatantly obvious from the mess that flowed from his novels that that is not the case. The people who lived there and mixed and existed as the local population knew what happened and that was 133 years ago. The rest is.............. put it into your own vocabulary.I contend the paragraph above suggest he hasn't read Gray, because he cannot describe the book, and either relies on a scan of Utley's intro or someone else's summation. He was asked for this "completely preposterous outline", but he failed to provide it or a description of it, or an author of it. He also says Gray wrote novels. Instead, he hopes to shield his ignorances by over praising Gray as if familiar with him, and he does this to others in hopes that it implies the confidence in his absurdities of proof to come. Children do this trying to scam adults. This, by the way, is the sort of stuff you'd run across far more often before Gray, because there was no logic structure to hold theories to reality, whatever they were. It's that confinement to structure that annoys the frauds and the disturbed, the children and the Custerphiles desperate for a construct to damn Reno and Benteen. Addendum: I'd also point out that the tactic of throwing up graphics isn't to illuminate and sometimes bears no resemblance at all to what the text references. It's to impart the idea of great substance, when there is none. It's why conz loves Google earth, because it impresses people who don't know how easy it is, and they thank him as if it were hand colored. An additional benefit is that Google Earth fails big time to demonstrate how awful the land is on both the Benteen scout and the battlefield. In his immediate response back under Independent Research, herosrest now says: The time scheme and conclusions were published previously to Gray's work. He was aware of the study undertaken by an army officer and Grays published work mimics the military assessment. l am aware you are critical of aspects of Gray's work. He did not invent the techniques he uses or develops. What he does provide is learned insight and considerable research. He did not produce a reliable or defensible time & motion analysis. For a work dealing with Mitch Bouyer, he glossed over some mighty big holes. You, agree with some of what l have just posted. l know that.Writing down time of action and comparing it to another's claim is ancient and didn't need to be invented. Gray certainly doesn't claim it as his own. What he did was apply time-motion study (which may actually be claimed to have been 'invented' by Frank Gilbreth -sp- who was the original subject of Cheaper by the Dozen) to the LBH for the first time, set up charts and distinguish possibilities from impossibilities. You say a military officer did this previous? Who. When. Your description of Gray makes him seem like a con man: smart, but applied his smarts to falsehood and fabrication. He was a highly esteemed medical doctor and amateur historian, and well regarded in that field as well. Hey, DC, l never got my apology from you. files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/634358/VarnumA.jpg
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Post by herosrest on Oct 27, 2013 15:00:08 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Oct 27, 2013 16:49:10 GMT -6
oo
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 27, 2013 19:30:50 GMT -6
No more drinking tonight for you HS
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Post by scottbono on Jan 7, 2014 21:01:01 GMT -6
No more drinking tonight for you HS I really tried reading the thread objectively. I am here because I am interested and not only want to know more but also various theories and ideas. That said, herosrest gave me a headache and eyestrain. Just being candid. And I don't think it's drinking.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 7, 2014 21:26:43 GMT -6
Nor do I.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 8, 2014 8:01:29 GMT -6
Well then the alternatives are not good.
HS do you drink and post?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by scottbono on Jan 10, 2014 17:37:12 GMT -6
Fecalith in the Circle of Willis
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 22, 2014 17:25:23 GMT -6
Fecalith in the Circle of Willis I think I have just attended one of Nero's or Henry VIII feasts and HS was the main course.
As I alluded to earlier, elsewhere I wanted to study rather than read. But I have read a good deal, so from what I have read, I thought all military (officers) watches were set to Chicago time. Is that not correct? I also do not recall reading that Custer devised an escape route and a plan to reunite, should things go badly. Is that so? What was it?
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Post by fred on Jan 22, 2014 21:05:39 GMT -6
... from what I have read, I thought all military (officers) watches were set to Chicago time. Is that not correct? No it isn't. John Gray claimed local sun. Greg Michno thinks Chicago. If you do the work, however, it becomes quite clear they were operating on St. Paul/HQ time. When I was working on my time line I contacted the U. S. Naval Observatory in D. C. and they sent me a ream of data, St. Paul to the Billings area (Billings did not exist in 1876), for several days ending on the 26th, I think. When you start plugging in the data it becomes increasingly clear they stuck to Terry's St. Paul time. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 23, 2014 4:24:36 GMT -6
... from what I have read, I thought all military (officers) watches were set to Chicago time. Is that not correct? No it isn't. John Gray claimed local sun. Greg Michno thinks Chicago. If you do the work, however, it becomes quite clear they were operating on St. Paul/HQ time. When I was working on my time line I contacted the U. S. Naval Observatory in D. C. and they sent me a ream of data, St. Paul to the Billings area (Billings did not exist in 1876), for several days ending on the 26th, I think. When you start plugging in the data it becomes increasingly clear they stuck to Terry's St. Paul time. Best wishes, Fred. Thank you, sure would have been easier if Custer had waited until after 1883 to die.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 23, 2014 8:32:00 GMT -6
In 1883 the US Army held field trials to test the new six round Winchester-Hotchkiss M.1883 .45-70 Bolt-Action Rifle, but still went in favour of the Springfield M.1873 as it was deemed superior.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 23, 2014 9:28:27 GMT -6
In terms of rifles it would have probably been better for George if he had waited for Captain Kirk's Phaser. I think he was referring to a standardization of time zones. If there was a standard time zone used at LBH there would probably be no need for half the posts on this board, for determination of time of event is by far the hardest thing to fathom and agree on.
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