jody
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Post by jody on Aug 31, 2009 16:03:50 GMT -6
In "Where Custer Fell", (henceforth WCF), p.172, is a photo of William C. Slaper, MOH, one of the water carriers. He's shown standing at the mouth of the ravine he used. The ravine is behind him. It is one of the few pics that the authors of WCF couldn't match to a modern site. (I haven't a clue how to post the pics or even if that's permissable under copyright, sorry.) In WCF, they go on to say, "Because of the uncertainty about which route or routes the water carriers used to reach the river, this photo is potentially of great historical significance." At this site, www.modoc1873.com/noname94.html, I found what appears to be a photo taken at the same time showing William Slaper posing right at the river at the end of the ravine. (Basically the photographer and Slaper reversed places.) In the background are the river and on it's far bank, trees. If you look between Mr. Slaper and the right edge of the photo, you can see on the bank a light area free of trees and bushes on the bank. If you look on the right side of that spot, there's a tall tree, and aways back of it, a smaller one, leaning in. It looks to me that there's a square sign tacked onto it. At the left of the light area is what seems to me to be something circular. I'm thinking part of a windmill (hoops and vanes), standing upright, but sitting on the ground. (Btw, I've worked on repairing windmills. You really, really, want to have the top part on the ground!) To me, a windmill says well. If that is indeed a well, there would likely be a cistern, or stock tank, trough, or something there too. The sign is probably gone, the windmill could be too, but perhaps the stock tank or a foundation remains. Or even a modern well, for that matter. Is anyone familiar enough with that area to pinpoint the location?
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 31, 2009 20:07:06 GMT -6
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Post by bc on Aug 31, 2009 23:21:08 GMT -6
To the left of Slaper in that picture, just left and under the upper w, is the roof of a house. Kinda resembles the Jason Pitsch house in size. That would be the southern end of the timber fight. There is a road east of the Pitsch house that runs along the west side of the river.
That would be my best guess but I don't know where the river was in 1926. South of the Pitsch house a few hundred yards is 2 or 3 houses/mobile homes presently inhabited. They could be possibilities but they are no where near the water carrier ravine. If I could find my Bonafides map with an aerial view I would look.
bc
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jody
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Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Sept 1, 2009 12:26:08 GMT -6
Thank you Diane for the direct link to the photo.
bc, I think we can rule out the Pitsch house as being too far downstream. Don't think mobile homes were present in 1926 when pic was made.
Also, at the online photo site I first posted, the seller shows the obverse of the pic. Brininstool's caption is on it. As a reseacher and with an actual participant, I don't think he posed Mr. Slaper just anywhere but where he actually did his heroic deed. WCF also has more pics of Mr. Slaper in the Reno entrenchment area too.
Saw the white splooch too, but hesitated as it could also be the sky through the trees, a higher area that has been cleared of trees and shrubs, or just something to trick my eye.
However, looking at a satellite view on Google Maps, it does show a square of white! If you (again pardon my inability to post the view) look at the Reno Battlefield road/trail they highlight and use the bottom triangle as a pointer down to the river, just across from where it intersects the water is a road or trail that is very light. At the end of it is the bright white square. The house or building as under the "w" perhaps?
Another however, however. In "The Custer Album" (after, TCA) by Frost - I don't have it, am looking at a preview of the pages in Google Books - there is a pic on p. 156 that shows the Water Carriers Ravine, looking down it. The narrowness and steepnes seems to match the Slaper photo in WCM. The photo misses the area of the Slaper pic (hidden by the bluffs) but does show the bend in the river below it. It's the jigsaw-shaped piece caused by the looping of the river. It's forested, but with a bright spot in it! Building, cleared uplift, the river itself?
Of course, this doesn't match the position of the little bright square, which is north of it.
The Google satellite view does show a cleared area in the middle of the, I'll name it, "Jigsaw Loop". There's tree shadow that crosses it. Could be an abandoned building site or again, maybe a cleared hummock, or part of the old watercourse.
TCA on p. 157 shows a view from the top of the ravine Reno used to climb the bluffs. The north end of the "jigsaw loop" can be seen there too.
Using all these pics to match backgrounds, fields, roads, etc. has cause my eyes to go all winga-winga. A little help, maybe?
Does anyone have a copy of "The Custer Album" so as to date the pics in it?
So with all this messy info, my thinking is that Slaper's water carrier ravine is between the claws of the feature just downstream of the main ravine that the triangle points towards. The pic is not shot directly across the river, but about 45 degrees upstream putting bc's house where the small bright square is on the satellite pic. Or the house could be in the clearing of the jigsaw loop. The area with the light trail is not forested away from the river, and the bright feature may be aways away in the loop area.
TCA on p.154 has a relief map whose river course doesn't match the modern view. There's also the McGuire map that doesn't seem to match anything. Surprise!
So, thank you bc for mentioning the ever changing river.
Can anyone post maps of the river in that area in various years?
Has anyone been across the river from Water Carriers Ravine and can identify bc's house or Google's square of light?
Jody
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 1, 2009 13:00:14 GMT -6
The page 154 map appears to be the same one as that in the 1969 Battlefield booklet by Utley, although my TCA is 1964 printing, but they're the same. Park Service did the map.
The bright spot on 156 looks to be the river through the trees, as it follows the course on Gray's map, which is quite handy. Don't know what Google shows, but it's made of composite flyovers by satellite and some times different seasons appear on same area. Just sayin'.
The WCR photo is just credited to Frost, no date. The picture of Slaper on p 173 says it's from the Dorsh Memorial Library. No date. Same tie, tie clasp.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 1, 2009 16:33:35 GMT -6
I didn't think Slapper received the MOH. He was a water carrier though. I believe the company commander said either all receive the MOH or none. I could be wrong.
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jody
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Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Sept 1, 2009 17:07:47 GMT -6
Thank you darkcloud!
The TCA map may be on p. 155 or p. 154 - hard to tell on the preview. Anyway, it's a model relief map. It shows a bunch of loop-de-loos south of my jigsaw loop. The map in Gray doesn't show these to such an extent.
The Slaper pics seem both to have been taken at the 50th Battle Anniversary, circa 1926.
The Frost photos have "author's photo" underneath. As book was copyrighted 1964 they predate that, but by how much is anyone's guess.
Doing an Old School thing, I traced by hand the Frost photos onto paper, then adjusted for perspective, and they match the Google overview quite well. All this to get a handle on just which loop we are seeing in the Frost photo of water carriers ravine.
I've convinced me that the little white square shown on Google is across the river from the Slaper photos location. On the tongue of land between where the river is close to the bluff and the first or northern loop of the jigsaw loop. In that stretch there, anyway.
After searching for houses and foundations and such, I think the white under the "w" that bc identified, might just be a tent.
My thinking: It's the Battle Anniversery coming up. There will be a bunch of people on the west side of the river to pose at Reno's crossing, some may want to see the Water Carriers place too from that side. Gotta clear the brush on the bank a bit so people can see, tack up a sign to show them where, set up a tent so they can "get a snort". Oh, and dig a well to water the horses, (the bank's rather high you know). And a trough too. Got the windmill to pump it all set? What? The top came, but the tower's on back order? Things never seem to go right in this place...
Jody
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jody
Junior Member
Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Sept 1, 2009 17:30:03 GMT -6
AZ Ranger, you are correct. Slaper did not recive the medal of honor. My mistake.
I see in Brinninstool's "Troopers with Custer", p57, that Slaper recounts, " I have read in Capt. Godfrey's account of these water volunteers that all the men were rewarded with medals of honor by Congress. I never received any such medal, nor do I think any other man did. If so, I never heard of it."
Also, same book, P 37, is the same pic of Slaper with the river behind him as offered at the website I mentioned in my first post. In the book it is cropped a bit and doesn't show the detail of their photo.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 1, 2009 19:20:18 GMT -6
Frost ID's Slaper in the TCA as a MOH winner, insofar as that means anything, page 173. But the medal meant next to nothing back then, and without that caveat the unwary can become more impressed than is deserved. A bunch of guys got it for re-enlisting, if I recall being told on this site.
The clay model looks even less realistic than the one at the museum at LBH, and it's in Monroe.
Anyway, I don't see any photo credits or dates beyond those with the photos.
Suspect your guesses about the white spots are correct. Magnification indicates, on page 156, the edges of a tent.
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jody
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Posts: 53
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Post by jody on Sept 1, 2009 21:40:57 GMT -6
Great eyes, Dark Cloud!
Found other modern views of Water Carriers Ravine that basically match the one on p. 157 of TCA. It seems to be the ravine usually labled as the one the troopers used to fetch water. Sure there were others, but with the dark cloud white tent id, it puts Slaper at the mouth of that particular one... maybe.
So now, to prove things, one just has to find where a tent once stood, a well might have been dug; a could-be windmill partially erected; the remnants of a temporary sign once posted on a tree that might or might not still be around; and stand in the exact spot Slaper stood if erosion hasn't eaten it away. Ah, CSI Little Big Horn!
(But it's no harder than sifting through too many markers for too few bodies, or 4+ lone tepees, or groups of grey horses where ever you turn or....)
And as it says in WCF "...it is potentially of great historical significance."
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newn
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Post by newn on Sept 24, 2010 6:21:07 GMT -6
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newn
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Post by newn on Sept 24, 2010 7:15:54 GMT -6
Anyone got good modern ground or air pictures of ravine where Slaper was standing back in 1926?
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newn
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Post by newn on Sept 26, 2010 17:22:25 GMT -6
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newn
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Post by newn on Aug 18, 2013 11:15:28 GMT -6
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