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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 10:42:02 GMT -6
darkcloud - There's no need to adopt unorthodox proposals, timber in considerable quantity was removed from the valley, lumber and felling was good business as development got underway. There is an 'entity' in the photograph to be explained, it is a man made structure - there is no doubt to that. The picture is a winter time shot which is awkward to reconcile with known facts. I've taken what l can find and worked through it. The road along the ridges is at first thought not a pratical way of getting to and from the Big Horn, perhaps the valley floor and winding river presented obstacles. It is eleven or so miles to the junction with Bighorn river, l don't know.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 6, 2009 12:49:26 GMT -6
It's not a structure at all, herosrest. Trying to grant you some substance, I thought it possibly was a cloth line for horse protection against the wind or the like, but after looking at the photos in WCF, it's the west bank facing east of a ravine. There is a great deal of doubt that's a "man made structure." It's a natural dirt wall. It would find mention in the Sanderson papers, were you right, but apparently you find none. In land and during a time when the Sioux and Cheyenne could find and burn it easy atop all else, nothing expensive and unprotected would be built there.
Have you given up claiming the photo is from Calhoun Hill? The topo maps blow that out of the water.
See if you can find a picture of what those 'portable' saw mills were shaped like and what would be required to cover them.
Fort Custer looks to be near 20 miles from the battlefield and that's as the crow flies. It was not expected to be a long lasting structure, wasn't very big, and had, I think this correct, no palisade wall. They did not have to seek lumber that far south in the LBH valley. Lumber was used by the railroad as it went, and farms followed right on the heels of Burlington, but the photos show the timber Reno hid in was still there years later.
Goldin, a proven liar, claimed much timber had been cut when, years later, he revisited the field.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 6, 2009 14:23:51 GMT -6
oreal_library/animals/photos/beaver_swim_food.jpg] [/URL] <<< CLICK[/quote] the water of the river loop has to climb quite a way to make this a deep ravine facing herosrest once again can you match this picture with a bird view of that part of the river of that period absurd, bogus, your theory is blown away, incompetent, you're blind, you're banned poster, a waste of time DC, herosrest has done a lot of reading and research on his own. who cares if this theory is proven wrong ; we are on a amateur board for people with interest in history. at least he seems a nice person putting in some lively stuff on this board that otherwise turns boring on comments of DC on other boards and insults of DC on people of this board, so please back off you rude buffalo you can only tell it is a ravine front if you get the river flow in front of it, whic I doubt
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 6, 2009 14:25:12 GMT -6
crap got the wrong picture ;D those f..beavers! [/color][/b][/center]
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Post by bc on Sept 6, 2009 14:42:02 GMT -6
Herosrest said: "An enduring legacy of LBH is the tradition of care for fallen and wounded, 'everybody goes home'. A fitting tribute to a place dear to american hearts."
Not sure what you mean here. I personally am not all that thrilled with the way they cared for the dead there. Terry's column arrived on the 27th. The NAs scattered southwest into the Bighorn mountains. Not a soul NA left to threaten any burial party. Instead of using the entire command or even spare a company to take care of the dead and/or send to the Powder river depot for shovels and all else needed, they do hasty burials and go where? Not chasing after the running NAs but back to the Yellowstone for a campout as their letters of July 4 show. Terry just came from the Yellowstone and not a hostile around within a 100 leagues. And then we complain about Crook turning tail. Unless Terry learned of Crook's retreat by the 27th, then Terry was disobeying Sheridan's orders regarding the converging columns to trap the NAs. Terry was only a day behind a moving village. What was Terry smokin?
And to top it all off, only a few Custer bones made it to West Point. It stands for reason then that most of Custer is still buried around the monument at LSH. And probably still has a bone fragment or two around his fell here marker down the hill where it was washed by rain and drug by the coyotes/wolves.
My dad's cousin had a portable saw mill about 50 years ago. He sawed good hardwood lumber found along creeks. Not much to it but a big saw blade, a couple gears and shafts and a couple pulleys. Just attach it to a wood table long enough to hold a full log on both ends. Just an oversized table saw is all it was. He used an old tractor with one of those wide rubber belts. Back in the day, they would have used cattle, mules, or horses or build a water wheel to put in the river like they did for grain milling. Didn't require a 400 foot shed and he did it in the winter too. Sorry but that pic doesn't contain a building's perpendicular lines of a shed. Besides as those early accounts indicated, they floated any logs down river so didn't need more than some men with saws and horse/mule teams to pull logs to the river. Not there but logging can have its effects. Go to Redwood City, CA or anyplace between San Jose and Frisco and try to find a redwood. They just cut them of the hills and mountains slid them down into the Bay where they were floated to mills.
Did Sanderson leave some papers? Did Norris?
Nt sure what you mean by the hail issue. I've been around alot of midwest tornados, hail storms, and gully washer rainstorms. Hail storms don't do that much damage except to cars and roofs. But I can sure see some gully washer thunderstorms washing bones and stuff half way down the slope. We got a barn on a hill. After every rain, I keep finding stuff from years gone by in the sloping corral.
I did read Allen's story on the LBH. He must have been quoting the Jackson boys and good ole Muggins Taylor. He did make an interesting statement about Gall coming up Deep Coulee and then circling around behind battle ridge cutting Custer off from the east. That's the first I've heard of a named chief and his forces being on the east side of battle ridge. That would explain a lot and may be worth further discussion. Seems like accounts I've read has Gall coming from the west or southwest side of battle ridge.
bc
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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 16:40:39 GMT -6
darkcloud, wolfgang911, l view the photograph differently, l'm not ramming stuff at people and believe in what l can see.... if i'm any judge at all, others will see other than a feature of nature. The horsebones and boot on a pole, look down Calhun Coulee, that the picture has been -"ooh, look, it's LSH, by the entire viewing public for more than 100 years, isn't really my problem". You visit and you can'y see it.
There are many liars related to LBH and its development of theory, l ain't one. 'ad an ok bringing up l did, unless........... l learnt fast not to lie. Ever, and spot it a universe away. Quite a few worked their own agendas into the history. Quite a few tried to own the history. Some of it is quite insane.
Large quantities of timber were removed from the river in the valley where the battle took place. It is in all record of the place. Why it should be removed from that particular place, l have addressed. The gods were at work. That it went, is fact. That a building or lumber mill existed in the valley is open to question and l acknowledge you are asking. l believe l can prove beyond a questioning doubt that 'Sitting Bull' had a lodge set in that valley on 25th, June 1876, you aren't going to doubt that l know and yet as far as anyone knows there is no photograph of his tipi.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 16:48:23 GMT -6
Hi bc. It was more the change in attitude towards the field which came about through criticisms. Sheridans being forced to juggle a very precious budget and then the enduring process and tribute which developed over following years. I did literally mean the soil was simply dissolved and washed away in rain as hail battered packed soil, breaking it up.
Terry, l guess was at a loss, his main strike element shattered. Responsibility breeds caution and many senior officers were just that. By compaerison, Custer could be deemed a firebrand and that is how he came to notice, fearless. That he marched off on a suicide mission is beyond the pale. No one seriously expected the 'up yours' that was awaiting. Terry and Crook did what happens, re-inforce, re-supply. There in point was the armies real weakness, the supply chain nightmare, inspite of the advantages bestowed by the river boats. Had Custer that morning simply thought, well, try and stall them a day and parley, interesting things might have happened.
Allen's story is interesting, it falls into that category which many disregard and yet is first hand and independent of much influence that existed. He states plainly the area was littered with thousands of spent shells, which might or might not be expected in modern day, but is first hand from a local who knew the place and people of that time.
Gall is interesting, my read is that he engaged at Calhoun Hill where l can honestly see the troops running low on ammunition . An account Gall provided to D.F. Barry at the 10th anniversary is reasonably little known and some problem was the case with weapons or ammunition. It can read that Calhoun took Gall 35 minutes to overcome. I've spent quite many hours, for sometime facing the John S. Gray bible of LBH, which is a truly frustrating experience. l can't believe what Gray got away with. Gall version - D.F. Barry
I appreciate the many issues and scepticism in regards timber and mills, it's not a building, and so did seriously contemplate what form of nature it is. There is the further prospect of a prankster at work. Quite much in regards the image is unexplained though l doubt very much inexplainable. This is a fantastic topic and l refer t LBH in its entirety.
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Post by clw on Sept 6, 2009 17:20:00 GMT -6
Have to disagree with you here. The need to refit aside, I get the feeling from the tone of the comments I've read on the burials, that those guys were jittery, nervous wrecks. Understandably. There was very little scouting done except in the immediate area. As far as they really knew, the Sioux could have boiled out of those hills any moment and do to them what they were seeing with their own eyes had been done to five companies of their fellows.
You say "Terry just came from the Yellowstone and not a hostile around within a 100 leagues". But Bradley makes clear his concern for the threat on the night of the 26th ...."there were Indians enough in the timber and on the hills before us, in chosen positions of great strength, to have cut [us] all to pieces and driven [us] back in ruinous disorder." And while I realize lookouts would be SOP...
Gerard... "I accompanied the troop to the Custer battlefield, where the dead were buried. Major Reno instructed me to select some high point and keep a constant lookout for Indians in all directions to avoid any chance of surprise while the men were burying the dead."
Varnum... "I received orders from Major Reno to go on some bluffs well out from the river with the Indian scouts as a lookout... and I reamined there during the burial."
Wylie... "had opportunity to see only a few bodies around Keogh and was then sent out as vidette to watch for Indians."
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 6, 2009 17:20:33 GMT -6
herosrest I'm on "your side" don't ya see : just give the bird view so it can prove if it is the river that carved a wall or not. from this view the river could not curve so straight to the left of the picture and climb up gravity. there does not seem space for a wide river anyway doing erosion. can you place your building on a bird view thanks kola
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Post by herosrest on Sept 6, 2009 17:29:02 GMT -6
Hi 911 - the picture is over 100 years old and part of the issue considered is that river loops, bluffs as well, have transformed over time as man and nature worked their magic on this valley.
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Post by crawdaddo on Sept 6, 2009 22:59:55 GMT -6
I don't say much but my eyes are as good as anyone else's. Thats a river bank sure as crap. Who's gonna put a sawmill down where it might get flooded ? ...cheers craw.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 7, 2009 0:40:58 GMT -6
1877 or 1879 or Artistic Licence ? Bumped into this sterioview of the image offering a broader field of view, so it has been cropped. Detail is very poor. Hope yet then for a definitive locale. And of course there is at least one more picture taken from a slightly different spot and elevation.
I wonder who the people were in those winter time shots. If this was 1877, winter time, i'm at a loss for a military unit being present, if it is Sandersons party then he was on site an awful long time. All summer into the winter, 'cos there are no leaves on those trees. The site was initially memorialized by Captain George Sanderson some three years after Custer fell. April 1879. Sanderson, accompanied by his 11th Infantry, separated the remaining human bones from those left by decayed animals, laying to rest some four or five different soldiers. Sanderson then crafted a simple wooden grave four feet above the ground along a high point to the rear of where Custer’s force was brought down.
A few years after this, Lieutenant Charles F. Roe and his 2nd Cavalry constructed a granite memorial, moving the bodies of soldiers to this new site. However, stakes were left to show where many of these soldiers died (these markers were later replaced with marble). So there's a further difficulty, 1877 or 1879.
If it proves possible to find or do this - CLICK - with the image or the original is that good - then problem sorted, l reckon. That is Fort Custer, Just the officers quarters. Quite a bit of lumber they used. Fort Keogh was on the go also and Terry's landing, erm... quite a bit else as well. I think Miles dropped in a block house here and there along his supply routes and then......... a few more forts. Ooh.......... fuel, for the river boats and forts.
Prints of the pictures were included with Sandersons report on his work and it seems to cause no end of confusion. They do not date from April ' 79, the report does. The picture is late autumn or winter and who was there then? if it was 1877 or early '88. You guys know heaps........... loads and loads LBH........ help?[/color]
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Post by bc on Sept 7, 2009 8:05:27 GMT -6
John Fouch was the first photographer at Fort Keogh. In 1877, Capt. Michael Sheridan wouldn't allow photographers along on his trip. Norris took Fouch while Norris headed to Jellystone. Norris out rode Fouch and his assistant but Fouch got there for his photo and one of Deep ravine which is still missing.
Morrow took over as photographer at Keogh and started a studio at Fort Custer in the fall of 1878.
Huffman took over for Morrow in Dec 1879 and acquired Morrow's photos.
Capt. George K. Sanderson of the 11th Infantry apparently wrote his report in April, 1879 but when did they go to the battlefield? In April in KS things are greening up fairly well. Maybe RedneckPaul can enlighten us as to when the trees green up in Montana.
Soldiers are definitely in Morrow's photos. Judging by the coatless soldiers and the civilian with an open coat in the Keogh marker photo on page 106 of Where Custer Fell, it does not appear to be too cold or any snow on the ground. The tall, bearded officer is guessed to be Sanderson.
Billy, Can you pull up any enlistment data on Sanderson as to height, etc. Maybe Lt. Charles F. Roe as well. The guy in the photo is over 6 foot tall.
bc
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Post by markland on Sept 7, 2009 8:23:30 GMT -6
John Fouch was the first photographer at Fort Keogh. In 1877, Capt. Michael Sheridan wouldn't allow photographers along on his trip. Norris took Fouch while Norris headed to Jellystone. Norris out rode Fouch and his assistant but Fouch got there for his photo and one of Deep ravine which is still missing. Morrow took over as photographer at Keogh and started a studio at Fort Custer in the fall of 1878. Huffman took over for Morrow in Dec 1879 and acquired Morrow's photos. Capt. George K. Sanderson of the 11th Infantry apparently wrote his report in April, 1879 but when did they go to the battlefield? In April in KS things are greening up fairly well. Maybe RedneckPaul can enlighten us as to when the trees green up in Montana. Soldiers are definitely in Morrow's photos. Judging by the coatless soldiers and the civilian with an open coat in the Keogh marker photo on page 106 of Where Custer Fell, it does not appear to be too cold or any snow on the ground. The tall, bearded officer is guessed to be Sanderson. Billy, Can you pull up any enlistment data on Sanderson as to height, etc. Maybe Lt. Charles F. Roe as well. The guy in the photo is over 6 foot tall. bc BC, it will be Tuesday or later before I can get over to Ft. Leavenworth and look at the Enlistment Register for Sanderson's data from his initial enlistment as a private in the 15th Inf. on 10/24/61. He obviously was promoted out of the ranks because he was discharged on 11/07 to accept a commission as 2d Lt. dated 10/31. Regarding Roe, we aren't as lucky as he was commissioned a 2d Lt. on 06/15/68 after his graduation from West Point. The Enlistment Registers don't contain any data for officers unless they had first been enlisted men. Billy P.S. I'll try to find another source of biographical intel for officers beyond Heitman.
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Post by bc on Sept 7, 2009 8:40:41 GMT -6
Thanks Billy. Here is Bob Reece's article over on the Friends site which quotes portions of Sanderson's report and mentions the other burial parties. Apparently Sanderson did say he buried human bones in the middle of the mound of horse bones. Not sure his report makes sense. Washing of the graves by the heavy and spring rains was a problem from day 1 apparently. www.friendslittlebighorn.com/dusttodust.htmbc
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