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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 3, 2009 5:03:08 GMT -6
If l was Custer, incapacitated with a wound on that battlefield and about to be overrun, l would shoot myself and so probably quite a few people. That takes courage. But l said nothing about Custer.
not a deed of courage in lakota culture it was, more the opposite, the easy way out facing clubs and knives studying your theory first, not being of the level dare to comment it at first sight anyway you got some puzzled even DC I bet keep up the good work
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2009 7:23:27 GMT -6
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2009 7:38:12 GMT -6
wolfgang911 - Whilst not a deed of courage in lakota culture, it did occur and was occasion for considerable grieving. One mans blonde is anothers strawberry. Had Custer been Lacota, he probably would have been dipping in the river or queing for a spot in a sweat lodge that glorious summer day. His attack was high risk as soon as word from Reno arrived that it was a stand up fight. Custer was a fighting man, warrior, his command was destroyed around him, family too and the possibility existed of becoming a political prisoner, hostage to fortune - if he was able, he shot himself.
Quite a thing started up with Vestals claims for 'Lazy White Bull', which was part of a rivalry with Lindeman who had bio'd 'Plenty Coups' as the Greatest Indian and so the claim that WB was hand to hand with GAC was torn to pieces and analysed to death. Amongst WB's accounts though he did also put a heavy fire into a cavalry position, see the leader go down and a soldier crawl across to that man. That was a coup he didn't count. There were a couple of hundred Custer's if you read all there is to read but it crosses my mind that might have been the wounding shot. Of course Custer may have had his swimming trunks with him.......... who knows?? Be well.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2009 10:34:54 GMT -6
There is really but one way one to to solve the puzzle. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF! <<< CLICK
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Post by bc on Sept 3, 2009 11:09:51 GMT -6
Herosrest, here is another one you can explain. Your materials mention that in the red box as being a lumbermill. Guess you need to come up with some evidence supporting a lumbermill being there in 1879 and why so close to the river and why on the inside of a river loop?
To me it indicates a steep cut bank of the river. And based upon what I saw of a fresh river cut at the timber area this summer, it has the straight down appearance of a straight down new river cut. Possibly one closing off that loop? I still don't know what the steepness of the banks on the east side of the river are.
bc
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2009 11:15:25 GMT -6
I doubt the building is in the valley unless it was constructed on stilts, to place it in Deep Ravine is problematical, Norris indicated access to the river as not possible there. Why indeed it should be located above the bluffs that side of the river is a question and a half but there it is in the picture. The timber was floated down river the 11 or so miles to the Big Horn and used as required. There were two portable lumber mills in use and new building techniques underway with Fort Custer. I puzzled over it for more than a year. A deduction, the mill is below the loop, felled trees are hauled in, finished and dropped into the river under gravity. Chop and trim on site and finish the work at a mill on the Big Horn. A final thought on the location of the mill, for that is all it can be, the route of road access at that time for freighting wagons.
Linked www.archive.org/details/reportsinspecti00deptgoog are memoranda made by Col. O.M. Poe, U.S. Engineers, ADC. accompanying Gen W.T. Sherman from Missisippi River to the Pacific, July to October, 1877. A very interesting overview of activity that year. Very, very much was taking place and the battlefield was not the lonely neglected place which is assumed. Virtually the entire Northern Cheyenne host passed the winter months until spring in the Greasy Grass valley, large areas of timber were cleared by gangs working to send lumber for construction of Fort Custer, one of Hoffmans early and famous pictures shows a temporary lumber mill that was in place. The 'Where Custer Fell' picture, you can just see its roof and upper frame. The weather caused untold havoc with efforts to keep burials covered. Torrential hail pounded the graves.
THIS IS A DECENT READ ALSO - A wagon train of settlers, including William A. Allen travelled up the valley during early August, 1877 and spent 3 days walking the battlefield. Allen includes a chapter on his experience in his Book Twenty years in the Rocky Mountains. He also wrote Blankets and Moccasins: Plenty Coups and His People with Glendolin D. Wagner, author of Old Neutriment about John Burkman, Custer's orderly for nine years, and a biography of Calamity Jane. Allen was one of the founders of Billings, MT and a place called Allendale. 'Doc Allen', not the one who ended on boot hill after dancing on the end of a rope. www.archive.org/stream/adventureswithin00allerich#page/n7/mode/2up
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 3, 2009 15:44:50 GMT -6
If Custer shot himself he did himself a dis-service. So much for going down swinging and trying to take out as many opponents as you could.
"Suicide: the coward's way out" and I don't belief Custer was a coward.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 3, 2009 17:56:22 GMT -6
Hi crzhrs l see it differently, ;D but expect not, to find the situation that will test it out. The man was wounded at some stage during the fighting, enough was made clear about the wounds that that is a 50/50. The chest/shoulder hit killed or wounded so its a lame duck scenario.
Fear of capture was in all those soldiers minds and how each came to terms with demise is quite a personal matter, there are no lessons or practice on how to do it. Neither side were angels, the whites feared deeply the warrior victory practices, deeming them barbaric. They were justified in such opinion. Reynold's at Powder River got into hot water for a number of reasons, one being abandoning a wounded trooper who died horribly. The issue of Troops attacking peoples homes aside, that soldiers manner of death impacted the entire expedition. Right through the ranks, who ensured they kept a last bullet to officers, who had to rethink and heed the circumstance of the wounded. Reynolds was Court Martialled and that will have had an impact on all those officers thinking. Reynolds was moreso in trouble for fluffing his mission but Crook knew what he was doing. Don't mess up guys. That is the way it was, remains and ever more will be. That is a part of the aftermath of LBH, all the senior players looking over their shoulder wondering if blame of fault was headed their way. Care and treatment of wounded was a public concern, Custer had had a part in that becoming an issue of focus. Considerable resources went into providing doctors and medical services in the field.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 4, 2009 9:49:22 GMT -6
As someone said elsewhere, that's not a building but the raw ravine side. Further, using an incompetent graphic and imagining it accurate is a waste of time. The loops of the river beneath LSH are what you see, not the Garry Owen. There is no mystery, and when based on such sand, a waste of time.
It's always profitable to try and match banned and shamed former posters as new User ID's appear.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 15:07:15 GMT -6
hi darkcloud Your take is that the image within the red box is not a building but the raw ravine side. That would be Deep Ravine. I'll reconsider it. I'll see if it's possible to sharpen up the image to improve viewing. The 19th century photography imaged to .jpg is not the clearest of technologies but web file sizes make true image unpractical. Most imagery at .jpg is good for naked eye and web.
It doesn't indicate other takes. It's a structure of some kind. A building.
There is a confusion with the river loop location l expressed, second time now you interpret as it being at Garryowen. Not so. Not the point l make and not what l have said. The loop existed, when this picture was taken, it does not exist today but is shown in the map P.W. Norris made in 1877. The loop was below Calhoun Hill and not at the mouth or bluff face of Deep Ravine or at Garryowen either. It was between those two places, quite clearly indentified by Norris's map.
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Post by wolfgang911 on Sept 4, 2009 15:56:12 GMT -6
herosrest can you match this building with that map of yours and it's exact location to see exactly where and if the river could have cut this bank? eh DC suggests , among other insults, you're a former banned poster : somebody who has us click on beavers by the way funny board animation, that can not be invented be well!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 4, 2009 16:39:59 GMT -6
You're blind. That's not a building. Even if you believe it a building, there is nothing anywhere admitting to the construction of something that size, to no purpose, and it would have been expensive before 1879 as the railroad wasn't it quite yet, I don't believe. If it were a building, roughly the size of a zeppelin hanger, those in the tents twenty feet away probably would have noticed and wondered why they had to live in a tent, or why they brought them.
Second, the topographical maps for Calhoun Hill do not reflect the land as seen in the photo, where as they do for Custer Hill. That alone cans it.
Third, if you look at the loops to the west of LSH, then look at WCF, page 121, then look at page 103 which indicates on the map where these shots were taken, your case totally is squashed, if it could ever be described as that solid anyway. Photo evidence of exactly the sort of ravines that would show like that, because they are, in fact, that.
Again: the Norris map isn't really a map, has many errors, and is not to scale. The loops by the LSH area haven't changed much as photos through the years prove. The Garry Owen loop, where Reno fought is way south beneath Weir Point.
This is absurd.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 16:41:45 GMT -6
Hi wolfgang911 Clicking on beavers hadn't occured to me, it's an unforseen twist. I am a true fan of the little critters, they are natures engineers and as the expression goes, they beaver away...... I'm not a previous member. I brought the picture and river loop matter because there is a lively, interested and knowledgable membership. LBH is hugely interesting when you make the mistake of dipping in a toe and the home of some stubborn set in their ways opinions, views and pro's. It's a voyage of discovery and history, 30 tons of Silver bullion.... don't ask.
I can'y walk that terrain, else l'd have it sorted. I'm here and will see where things go. I learnt not to jump the gun with matters because there is so mush depth and so much which misleads. It's good fun.
There is a good online read here - [URL=http://www.archive.org/stream/beaverstheirways00tayluoft#page/n5/mode/2up[/url]CLICK[/URL] - Beavers, their ways : and other sketches, by Joseph Henry Taylor. He was a hunter, trapper on the plains when all this was going on and published a few very interesting books.
Just click on the book pages to flip them.[/color][/b]
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Post by herosrest on Sept 4, 2009 16:59:03 GMT -6
darkcloud, There isn't really more to discuss between us then. Thanks for your assistance. Bewell.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 4, 2009 17:09:59 GMT -6
Public board. Expect continued comment.
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