Southern Cheyenne Gallery

[HinTamaheca]

White Antelope, Man On A Cloud, Little Chief – Southern Cheyenne – 1851


Old Wolf, Lame White Man – Southern Cheyenne – 1868


Daughter of Little Robe - Southern Cheyenne - circa 1868


Southern Cheyenne Man - 1868


Southern Cheyenne Men - 1869


Whirlwind - Southern Cheyenne - 1869


Brother of Red Moon - Southern Cheyenne - 1869


Stone Calf and wife – Southern Cheyenne – 1871


Stone Calf and wife - Southern Cheyenne - 1871


Standing L-R: Buffalo Woman (Southern Cheyenne), Medicine Water (Southern Cheyenne)
Sitting L-R: Wife of Black Horse (Comanche), Black Horse (Comanche), Eagle Head (Southern Cheyenne) - circa 1875


Buffalo Woman (Southern Cheyenne), Romeo (Mexican, Interpreter), Medicine Water (Southern Cheyenne) - 1875


Howling Wolf - Southern Cheyenne - circa 1875


Whirlwind - Southern Cheyenne - 1875


Whirlwind – Southern Cheyenne – 1877


Southern Cheyenne men – 1879


Southern Cheyenne Camp - circa 1879


Big Belly - Southern Cheyenne - 1880


Southern Cheyenne men - 1880


Big Horse – Southern Cheyenne – 1880


Magpie (wife of George Bent) - Southern Cheyenne - 1880


Southern Cheyenne sisters - 1885


Southern Cheyenne Camp - no date


Daughter of Black Short Nose - Southern Cheyenne - 1890


Cloud Chief - Southern Cheyenne - no date


Cloud Chief - Southern Cheyenne - no date


Southern Cheyenne Girl - no date


Black Coyote - Southern Cheyenne - 1891


Wolf Robe - Southern Cheyenne - 1891


Wife and daughter of Big Elk - Southern Cheyenne - 1892


Three daugthers of Man On A Cloud - Southern Cheyenne - 1892


Young Southern Cheyenne man and wife - 1893


Young Southern Cheyenne man - 1895


Southern Cheyenne men - 1895


Buffalo Meat, Three Fingers and Wolf Robe - Southern Cheyenne - 1895


Southern Cheyenne girls – 1895


Southern Cheyenne girl - 1895


Coyote (aka Little Wolf) – Southern Cheyenne – 1895


White Horse - Southern Cheyenne - 1895


Whirlwind and family - Southern Cheyenne - 1895


Little Chief - Southern Cheyenne - 1898


Members of the Elk (aka Crooked Lance) Warrior Society - Southern Cheyenne - 1898


Lucy Crooked Nose – Southern Cheyenne – 1898


Lucy Crooked Nose – Southern Cheyenne – 1898


Three Fingers - Southern Cheyenne - 1898


Starving Elk (aka Standing Elk; Little Hand; or Spotted Hawk) - Southern Cheyenne - 1898


Wolf Robe – Southern Cheyenne – 1898


Wolf Robe – Southern Cheyenne – 1898


Wolf Robe - Southern Cheyenne - 1898


Little Chief and Turkey Leg – Southern Cheyenne - 1899


Henry Roman Nose, Yellow Bear, Lame Man - Southern Cheyenne - 1899


Henry Roman Nose and wife - Southern Cheyenne - no date


Lame Man – Southern Cheyenne – 1899


Southern Cheyenne father and son - 1900


Harvey White Shield and family - Southern Cheyenne - 1900


Porcupine – Southern Cheyenne – 1907


Scabby – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Scabby, wife Walking Woman, daughter Bear Woman – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Bear Wings and wife – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Wolf In The Middle – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Brave Bear - Southern Cheyenne - 1908


Crossed Feathers – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Crossed Feathers, wife and daughter – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Three Fingers – Southern Cheyenne – 1908


Wolf Robe – Southern Cheyenne – 1909


Wolf Robe – Southern Cheyenne – 1909


Big Horse - Southern Cheyenne - 1909


Southern Cheyenne men – 1909


Rush Harris and Cousins - Southern Cheyenne - circa 1909


Southern Cheyenne couple - 1910


Robert Sandhill, wife and sister - Southern Cheyenne - 1910


Prairie Chief – Southern Cheyenne – 1911


Southern Cheyenne Sun Dancers - 1912


Brave Bear - Southern Cheyenne - 1913


Magpie – Southern Cheyenne – 1924


Bear Man - Southern Cheyenne - 1924


Southern Cheyenne men – 1924

[wolfgang911]

thank you hin once again

the picture with no date of little chief can be dated to 1875 as whirlwind has the same bonnet and saber

do you know why there was one single painted tipi standing on the 1880 camp (oklahoma?tents?)

what occurs to me is how nice, welldressed and proud the women look, the men having them in front on their pictures
(hardly a sign to prove DC 's enslavement theory of poor women)

[wolfgang911]

oops sorry I ment the picture of cloud chief with no date and not little chief

speaking about little chief : 1851 picture and then in 1898 and still on horseback 50 years later, at least 90.. same guy?

[Dark Cloud]

There are photographs of wholesome white families, rather good looking, with everyone smiling. It sometimes turns out the father beat everyone all the time - not where the bruises show - and eventually murdered some or all of them if the wife didn't get him first. Photographs of such families would reveal nothing, and nobody could tell if they were happy or just smiling.

Not being the paying customer, the Indians depicted here probably were washed and well groomed for the event, dressed in their best or someone else's best, and had zippo say where anyone was placed for the photograph, and did what they were told to do. Nobody looks like they just came in from the warpath or laundry day. May have been viewed as a pleasant respite, rather relaxing.

Have you found one Indian woman longing to relive the life of their ancestors? Probably not, since the interim stage on the rez doesn't hold them either. They mostly leave for the white man's city asap. Spending a life constantly attending the needs and wishes of a male holds few attractions when altenatives exist, for any woman, anywhere. It must seem, outside goober romantic restrospection, a harsh repetitive and boring life. Men chat it up because it worked so well for them.

[wolfgang911]

Hin can you judge this discussion between Dc and I?
Do you think honestly (or ask your wife? ;D), lakota and cheyenne women were enslaved (except for the booz periods)?

The proof is DC as I told you many of times : most of the ghost dancers were WOMEN, craving to go back to the old ways.
You mingle today and the past.
If you are being assisted for over a century it is hard to get back to any type of physical harder but better life. Untill 1950 (TV!) I bet any plains indian, man or woman would have preferred to go traditionnal.
The perverting paradox of assistance makes any jump bakc or forward impossible.

About impressions :
all white men (officers, soldiers) on the BW pictures of the same period look ugly, ignorant, stubborn and stupid. More or less like talibans going to europe and imposing their dull religion by the sword.
You cannot hide from the camera : sitting bull looks like the wittiest indian ever and his quotes proof he was, just like armstrong look like the smartest.... cyclist. ;D
Those women have a dignified and proud look into their eyes. Period.

[Melani]

Hunting and gathering as a lifestyle is pretty much a fulltime occupation, with different things going on in different seasons. For everyone to prosper, everyone had to do their own jobs. The men hunted the meat and hides, the women prepared them. They all had their own spheres of influence, and they were all important. The women and children gathered the plant foods, and the men took care of defense. There is a photo in this bunch of a young girl holding a bow and arrows, which I think would not have been something she would have actually had, and so was probably posed by the photographer for effect. (Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

I believe that among the Lakota, the women were considered to own the tipi, and divorce could consist of throwing the husband's possessions out the door. Of course, she'd better be sure she had someone to hunt for her before doing that, or she and her children could starve. One of the criteria for being a chief was to be a good hunter, since part of the responsibility was to help provide for families who had no adult male to hunt. As a result, women who were widowed and never remarried were very much respected--and probably pretty rare.

My source for this is Sitting Bull, Champion of the Sioux, by Stanley Vestal, which I read rather a long time ago. If anybody cares enough, I can supply quotes and page numbers. Since I am writing this from memory, I will say now that it is possible I may not be totally correct about every single detail. It's also possible Vestal wasn't totally correct about every single detail.

There is really nothing totally for sure about any of these discussions, except that this is a truly beautiful collection of photographs.

Wolfgang, I can't say that I agree that all soldiers in photos of the period looked ugly, ignorant and stupid. There is a wide variety of appearance and expressions in photos of both soldiers and Indians. But dc is right that they were all of them dressed up to be photographed--people today dress up for formal studio photos, or for Picture Day at school.

[wolfgang911]

Aug 18, 2009 9:00:34 GMT -6 Dark Cloud said:

Not being the paying customer, the Indians depicted here probably were washed

were washed
well well
and this guy is upset when conz gets his brain mixed up between warrior and soldier
as I said you run away with a lot of stuff you would be scalped elsewhere

here comes another one

[wolfgang911]

Aug 18, 2009 9:00:34 GMT -6 Dark Cloud said:

....
since the interim stage on the rez doesn't hold them either. They mostly leave for the white man's city asap. Spending a life constantly attending the needs and wishes of a male holds few attractions when altenatives exist, for any woman, anywhere. It must seem, outside goober romantic restrospection, a harsh repetitive and boring life.

.....A male....
an indian male like in Animals versus the white MEN's city

I would speak more in terms of people A man and A woman enduring hardship together,
hardship of a life of assistance not chosen by the people won by treachery and broken words of broken treaties.

tell me what your interesting non boring life is except for posting on 2 boards compared to those poor males and women.

Mel, Vestal's book is one of my favorites, me with my romantic views of SB, that I balance with everything else i can find :
(reading today anderson's " paradoxe of sitting bull" does not help me much)

I exagerated off course for the white pix (they are beautiful!) sorry.
But for a 19th century plains indian there would be no much difference between a taliban today and the bearded no fun what so ever agents and officers of 1880, who banned sun- and ghostdancing and other more rock and roll habits of the joyful plains indian, imposing a stern religion, of the earth you shall live with sweat and tears, (and not hunt meat for free having fun! )

About the pix : this is not a subject is it? Don't walk in DC guidelines of downgrade the plains civilisation.
The indians looked better dressed on any pictures out in the open (non studio), look at the early nez perce pix or arapaho that hin posted.
Look on this serie above :
nicely dressed and proud women and men (males) standing in front of log cabins outside after 1880, even at that period still holding to it.
See that the best dressed men are the earliest photograped men of 1851 : at that time > no studio - no fake dress - no technique of postcards - just right out of the plains
-indians WERE washed-
the indian women in front of their tipi in 1875 are better dressed then those in studio after 1880
Only when they lived too close to the fort they looked sad...
is my humble opinion.
if hin could explain more... would be more worthwhile!

[HinTamaheca]

If you really want to know what it was like for women among the Plains Tribes in the Buffalo Days, I can recommend the following sources of quality information:

Bettelyoun, Susan Bordeaux and Josephine Waggoner, Emily Levine
1998. With My Own Eyes: A Lakota Woman Tells Her People's History. University of Nebraska Press.

Brown, Dee
1970. Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee. New York: Holt, Rhinehart, and Winston. Austin, TX.

Catlin, George
1841. Letters and Notes on the Manners, Customs and Traditions of North American Indians. 2 Volumes, Tosswill & Myers, London, England. (Reprinted as Letters and Notes on the North American Indian. Ross and Haynes, Inc., Minneapolis, MN, 1965)

DeMallie, Raymond J. and P. Albers, Beatrice Medicine, eds
1983. “Male and Female in Traditional Lakota Culture" in The Hidden Half. University Press of America, Lanham, MD.

Dorsey, George Amos
1903. Traditions of the Arapaho. Field Columbian Museum, Anthropological Series, volume 5.
1905. The Cheyenne: Part I - Ceremonial Organization. Chicago: Field Columbian Museum Publication 99, Anthropological Series. Vol. 9, No. 1.

Ewers, John
1980. Horse in Blackfoot Culture. Smithsonian Institution Press.
1983. Blackfeet. University of Oklahoma Press.

Grinnell, George Bird
1965. The Cheyenne Indians. Vol. 1 and 2. Cooper Square Publishers, NY

Hoebel, E. Adamson
1960. The Cheyennes: Indians of the Great Plains. Holt, Rinehart & Winston, Inc., NY.

Linderman, Frank
1932. Pretty Shield: Medicine Woman of the Crows. Lincoln: University of Nebraska Press.

Voget, Fred
1995. They Call Me Agnes: A Crow Narrative Based on the Life of Agnes Yellowtail Deernose. Norman and London: University of Oklahoma Press.

[Melani]

Thanks for the bibliography, Hin. I can feel a whole new area of research coming on. I have just started The Lance and the Shield, by Robert Utley--the first I've read on Sitting Bull since Vestal. I'm beginning to understand why people retire--work is certainly getting in the way of my reading.

[HinTamaheca]

Aug 26, 2009 21:55:08 GMT -6 Melani said:

Thanks for the bibliography, Hin. I can feel a whole new area of research coming on. I have just started The Lance and the Shield, by Robert Utley--the first I've read on Sitting Bull since Vestal. I'm beginning to understand why people retire--work is certainly getting in the way of my reading.

Melani,

If you are interested in reading more on Sitting Bull, I can recommend Ernie Lapointe´s new book about his great-grandfather Sitting Bull.



From the inside flap of the book:

Sitting Bull
HIS LIFE AND LEGACY
Never before has the story of Sitting Bull been written and published by a lineal descendant. In Sitting Bull: His Life and Legacy, Ernie LaPointe, a great-grandson of the famous Hunkpapa Lakota chief, presents the family tales and memories told to him about his great-grandfather. LaPointe not only recounts the rich oral history of his family-the stories of Sitting Bull's childhood, his reputation as a fierce warrior, his growth into a sage and devoted leader of his people, and the betrayal that led to his murder-but also explains what it means to be Lakota in the time of Sitting Bull and now. In many ways the oral history differs from what has become the standard and widely accepted biography of Sitting Bull. LaPointe explains the discrepancies, how they occurred, and why he wants to tell his story of Tatanka Iyotake. This book is powerful. It is a story of Native American history, told by a Native American, for all people to better understand a culture, a leader, and a man.

ERNIE LAPOINTE, a great-grandson of Sitting Bull, was born on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation in South Dakota. He is a Sun Dancer who lives the traditional way of the Lakota and follows the rules of the sacred pipe. LaPointe and his wife, Sonja, live in South Dakota.

[crzhrs]

Melanie:

I've read Utley's Lance & Shield and highly recommend it.

It gives a more objective look at SB and his life.

LaPinte's book looks interesting. It may give us a different "view" of SB.

[blackhawkmike]

Shame nearly all of the photos are not available, only a handful of the thumbnails are visible and if you click on them it goes to a 404. Also Little Chief and Turkey Leg were Northern Cheyenne and Little Chief's band was a mix of Northern Cheyenne and Northern Oglala and Brulé. Such a handy resource by the way if the photos could be reposted.