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Post by wolfgang911 on May 17, 2009 15:55:10 GMT -6
you guys forget all the pawnee crows arikara shoshones fighting with the army, in most events being THE lethal weapon for the army. since 1500 from Brazil to Canada it was often more Indians enlisted against Indians as fighting spanish, british or american vs indians. without those stupid 'friendly' hostiles no way of finding innocent villages to ramsack and countering the indians on many occasions, being aware of their strategies and favorite hide outs. ...to the cheyennes for instance the dog soldiers would still be strong for the decisive battles if not hunted down by North and his f**k**g pawnees
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Post by conz on May 17, 2009 20:19:19 GMT -6
I agree, and that is another fascinating study I don't think we've ever touched upon around here...how many Native Americans worked for/with the Americans, and what their valuable contributions were.
Who were the greatest pro-American Native American Warriors?
Clair
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 18, 2009 14:30:45 GMT -6
Hau You agree??? holy holy, you finally admit that the us army in the field woud be nothing without .. ndn's, hélas. >> so the hostiles did not outnumber the army, review your account >> crazy horse and SB could not expect such a lousy conduct of their own but crap happens a lot, alos in europe 40-45, don't trust your neighbour
I call your heroes collaborators with very short view leaders that ended up in oklahoma or exterminated anyway with their 'gene lines gone' forever, as you always talk, whilst sioux and apache DNA is still sitting their thickening
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Post by conz on May 18, 2009 14:33:59 GMT -6
wild was going along so well there. I suppose I finally pushed him over the edge...sorry for all this slavering, folks...
Clair
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Post by conz on May 19, 2009 6:46:25 GMT -6
Sound like our campaigns? …Africa: the Army’s next frontier…
Trashing The Camps
May 19, 2009: In the last week, the army has destroyed two gang (rebel group MEND) camps, killed over 200 gangsters (and several times as many civilian bystanders as well). The army likes to keep its casualties down, so it uses helicopter gunships (or just transport helicopters armed with a machine-gun or two), and lots of long range machine-gun fire by ground troops. The army has more firepower than MEND or the gangsters, and always wins.
With their camps, and most of their possessions, gone, many of the organized gangsters have fled and gone freelance. The crime rate will decline somewhat, but there's still too much money to be made stealing oil from punctured pipelines. Shipping more oil does not help most Nigerians, since corrupt politicians continue to steal most of the oil revenue that flows to the government. While the violence in the Niger Delta oilfields gets most of the headlines, an outbreak of meningitis has killed over 2,000 Nigerians in the last few months. Many more healthy Nigerians die from a wide variety of curable diseases and avoidable accidents. Local groups in the Niger Delta, like MEND, have escalated the war by threatening any Moslem northerners working in the oil region. This could trigger violence against Christian southerners living in the north.
Some things never change…this is one reason we study the Indian Wars.
And let’s not forget Southwest Asia…
The Big Shift
May 19, 2009: The Pakistani Army expects their anti-Taliban campaign to have successfully concluded by the end Summer (three months). In a month of fighting, most of the 4,000 Taliban fighters in the Swat Valley have been killed, wounded or fled the area. The army has lost fewer than a hundred dead, and about 400 casualties overall. More Taliban fighters have entered the valley to help defend the largest city, Mingora. But several Taliban bases in the valley have already been captured, and Mingora is not expected to remain under Taliban control for long. A major problem with this campaign are the refugees, nearly 1.5 million of them so far. The army tends to use warplanes (and helicopter gunships), artillery and long-range machine-gun fire, and this is dangerous for any civilians in the area. The Taliban likes to use civilians as human shields, and the civilians know it. Most of the refugees have found shelter with family or friends, but nearly 600,000 are in refugee camps.
Clair
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 19, 2009 14:42:38 GMT -6
blablabla
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Post by Melani on May 20, 2009 10:10:07 GMT -6
The Cherokee removal was absolutely nothing but a land-grab by the people in power, and was an absolute disgrace. It should have been perfectly possible for the whites and Cherokees in that area to live side-by-side, but because the Cherokees were Indians, it was easier to ride roughshod over them and seize their valuable property. If they had been German or Dutch or some other European group, public opinion would have to have been manipulated a lot more to get away with such an action.
California Indians didn't even kill each other, generally--the Ohlone, the ones who lived here in the Bay Area, did have wars after a fashion. They would go through various rituals and get all worked up against the enemy, and then both sides would line up on either side of a meadow and shout insults at each other. If they were really, really mad, they might each send a champion to actually fight it out, but generally just retired from the field after each side felt the other had been properly insulted.
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Post by Diane Merkel on May 20, 2009 19:26:04 GMT -6
Geeeezzzz, maybe I should sit you in a sandbox with the Swiss Cheese.
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Post by markland on May 21, 2009 0:15:43 GMT -6
Hau You agree??? holy holy, you finally admit that the us army in the field woud be nothing without .. ndn's, hélas. >> so the hostiles did not outnumber the army, review your account >> crazy horse and SB could not expect such a lousy conduct of their own but crap happens a lot, alos in europe 40-45, don't trust your neighbour I call your heroes collaborators with very short view leaders that ended up in oklahoma or exterminated anyway with their 'gene lines gone' forever, as you always talk, whilst sioux and apache DNA is still sitting their thickening Wolfie, don't be totally ridiculous. Crook understood that the best way to catch an Indian was to use other Indians, preferably Indians from another band or tribe. The Cheyennes volunteered to hunt down Crazy Horse's band. There were even Sioux in service with the Army during the 1876 campaign if I correctly recall. Did the Army, or the Government, pay back their service by sending them to Florida or Oklahoma? Damned right and it is a black eye that the U.S. military wears to this day. Billy
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Post by conz on May 21, 2009 7:05:46 GMT -6
The Cherokee removal was absolutely nothing but a land-grab by the people in power, and was an absolute disgrace. It should have been perfectly possible for the whites and Cherokees in that area to live side-by-side, but because the Cherokees were Indians, it was easier to ride roughshod over them and seize their valuable property. If they had been German or Dutch or some other European group, public opinion would have to have been manipulated a lot more to get away with such an action. How about Mormons or Shakers? Were they treated any better than the Cherokees? Is it more about cultural value difference than actually about race? At least we treated the Cherokee better than the poor Wiccan women in Salem Massacheusetts, eh? But yes, it was a disgrace. And with the Cherokee we probably had a better chance to come to a decent understanding than with most Native tribal groups...and that "ethnic cleansing" was the best the Americans could come up with at the time. Not too impressive. That must have been before the white Spaniards taught them how to scalp. <g> Clair
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 28, 2009 15:00:53 GMT -6
Hau You agree??? holy holy, you finally admit that the us army in the field woud be nothing without .. ndn's, hélas. >> so the hostiles did not outnumber the army, review your account >> crazy horse and SB could not expect such a lousy conduct of their own but crap happens a lot, alos in europe 40-45, don't trust your neighbour I call your heroes collaborators with very short view leaders that ended up in oklahoma or exterminated anyway with their 'gene lines gone' forever, as you always talk, whilst sioux and apache DNA is still sitting their thickening Wolfie, don't be totally ridiculous. Crook understood that the best way to catch an Indian was to use other Indians, preferably Indians from another band or tribe. The Cheyennes volunteered to hunt down Crazy Horse's band. There were even Sioux in service with the Army during the 1876 campaign if I correctly recall. Did the Army, or the Government, pay back their service by sending them to Florida or Oklahoma? Damned right and it is a black eye that the U.S. military wears to this day. Billy billy I totally agree with this so what is the difference with my "ridiculous" view? The tragedy of the NDN was their internal division, intertribal and worse internal to the tribe itself, and yes dakotas scouted with custer. Clair states that to save their 'genes' people should submit (i resume the too long discussion ) I say that most of the time the "friendlies"s bloodlines have almost dissappeared except for the crows Clair states that the US army could run over any NDN enemy, even way outnumbered. I state that in any war there were as many scouts or native recruits as white army men. If you count the number of cavalry that hunted down Tall Bull and forget the Pawnee, the picture of the us army force is false. You state that the army wears a black eye for their sending to IndianTerritory of "friendly" tribes. Well in a way they got what they could expect, when you submit too much.. Those who fought the hardest are better off. If they rebound 1day.
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Post by wolfgang911 on May 28, 2009 15:08:00 GMT -6
The Taliban likes to use civilians as human shields, and the civilians know it. Most of the refugees have found shelter with family or friends, but nearly 600,000 are in refugee camps. [/i] Clair [/quote] sorry for saying blablabla to this Diana but this comparison on a wounded knee subject was a little too much for me. clair tries to develop a new theory that resistants like CH SB or even Big Foot were in a way talibans and irresponsable leaders, taking their people on a bloody road by purpose whilst in my view they only fled violence when possible. clair knows anyway that I like to debate like he does and that we can go on forever without calling names
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Post by conz on May 30, 2009 10:11:21 GMT -6
That's right, wg, and same goes for wild. I hope wild will continue to play with us in this sandbox, anyway. <g>
I think moral perspectives are important, and understand that they are very personal, so we take comments on them personally. I love you guys no matter your views, because your hearts are good, I believe.
There is a useful place for "pacifists" or just "limited force" views in our global society, as well as, I believe, for those of us who "carry the big sticks." Our moral values have to correspond to the roles we play.
What is most important, here, is that we try to understand each others views and how the apply to these Indian Wars questions...and not worry so much about intellectual pride or moral indignation.
Come back to us, wild...you are welcome here, where you dig it the most...
Clair
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