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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 5, 2009 14:44:17 GMT -6
BC,
No it is nothing like that--no conspiracy theory or anything. It is just felt that the digs all concentrated on the remnants of the earthworks area and environs (as being the only visible remains), and not much was found. It is that some believe that the actual Lost Colony site is more in the upper NW section of the park--not that far away, but an area missed by the earlier digs. As I say, no earthshaking new unknown theory, just that more work is needed in a wider and different area. But of course there is a lot of debate..... I actually did some work for Bill Kelso, the principal archaeologist who discovered the Jamestown fort's location. Matter of fact he wanted me to work on that project--but I already had a job. (which was too bad for me because the conservation work on that one made the cover of National Geographic!) I bet you were in Ft. Bragg, right? I was an instructor at the NCO academy there for some years, did you know there are some great archaeological sites active at Bragg too? As to the state motto, I only know it stems from the Wright brothers--although Ohio has more of a claim as that's where the work was done--just the flight was down here. And really getting off the subject; for the 100th anniversary they built an exact replica to fly at Kitty Hawk--and they couldn't get the thing off the ground! Apparently the Wright Bros. were just plain lucky that day as their flyer was really about unairworthy--but they didn't know that.
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Post by runaheap on Mar 5, 2009 15:27:28 GMT -6
It ain't called "Kill Devil Hills" fer Nothin!
Diane-Don't know if you were kidding or not, but they have found Jamestown some 4-5 year ago (the pallisade had one corner right under the existing monument) It being in the river was an ongoing yarn for over a 100 years.
James- you have my envy, digging at either Jamestown or Lost Colony would be a treat. Wonder if they would accept a Political Science Major. Naw, they could probably bag their quota of idiots out in the Roanoke area. Most of them have a Driver's license has been my experience. Always been one of my favorite areas of this Country though. Lost Colony Theatre is where Andy Griffith got his start. And, just looking at the notes and instruments that led Orville and Wilbur down their path is an experience. They also recovered the turret off the Monitor and it should be available to view shortly.
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Post by markland on Mar 5, 2009 17:06:09 GMT -6
It ain't called "Kill Devil Hills" fer Nothin! Diane-Don't know if you were kidding or not, but they have found Jamestown some 4-5 year ago (the pallisade had one corner right under the existing monument) It being in the river was an ongoing yarn for over a 100 years. James- you have my envy, digging at either Jamestown or Lost Colony would be a treat. Wonder if they would accept a Political Science Major. Naw, they could probably bag their quota of idiots out in the Roanoke area. Most of them have a Driver's license has been my experience. Always been one of my favorite areas of this Country though. Lost Colony Theatre is where Andy Griffith got his start. And, just looking at the notes and instruments that led Orville and Wilbur down their path is an experience. They also recovered the turret off the Monitor and it should be available to view shortly. I lived in Wanchese & Manteo when I started out with the phone company for 3.5 years, before the Banks got built up, i.e., before they put those ugly condos on the Epstein Tract. Back then you could drive on the by-pass on the Banks at night during winter and maybe see only one or two other cars (and likely one was a patrolman.) I was raised about two hours east of Manteo. Sheesh, I remember when you had to take ferries across both the Alligator River and the Roanoke Sound. Regarding Andy Griffith. I had a couple of drinking acquaintances who lived on a lot beside the access road to Andy's place. They told me that many a night Andy would wander up to their place and drink them out of house and home although they say they damned near died laughing at his stories. About this time in '80 I had left the central office for lunch and wandered downtown to Fearing's Hardware store. While there, I caught a glimpse out of the corner of my eye of this dumb-a** browsing around in shorts and barefeet-it was about 40 degrees and windy. I took a good look after a few and it was Andy. Billy
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 5, 2009 18:43:59 GMT -6
Runaheap, Ironicly my undergraduate degree is....Political Science! That left law school--I went but dropped out after two years...always wanting to do museum work--always wanted to do that, but I flunked US History 101 so many times they wouldn't let me take it any more, so I had to change majors. Hence Pol. Sci. So years later I started all over again--and haven't looked back since. Lot of work, but worth every bit! Now I'm just about retired after a good long career.
When we did the Lost Colony exhibit we had a bit about that play and had some of the things in the exhibit...this was just after they had a bad fire and lost a lot of their costumes and props. If I remember (I may be wrong because I didn't pay much attention to the more modern stuff) I think we had a costume or two in the exhibit that was used by Andy Griffith. The exhibit that is being worked on right now is about pirates and there is a lot of shipwreck stuff in it (Queen Anne's Revenge). The Monitor turret is in electrolysis (and desalination) and will be so for a little while yet, as is the Hunley. A lot of cool stuff came out of the Monitor, but the ship itself is deteriorating and at an alarming rate--and going faster each year. It is upside down and it was lucky to even get the turret. And wow have we gone off the original topic of bones here...sorry.
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Post by bc on Mar 5, 2009 23:17:39 GMT -6
BC, As to the state motto, I only know it stems from the Wright brothers--although Ohio has more of a claim as that's where the work was done--just the flight was down here. And really getting off the subject; for the 100th anniversary they built an exact replica to fly at Kitty Hawk--and they couldn't get the thing off the ground! Apparently the Wright Bros. were just plain lucky that day as their flyer was really about unairworthy--but they didn't know that. JW: Wright is Wrong! The first one to come up with the NC state motto of "First in Flight" is actually General Robert E. Lee on February 24, 1865. In a letter he wrote from his headquarters to Secretary of War John C. Breckinridge he stated the following: "Sir: I regret to be obliged to call your attention to the alarming number of desertions that are now occurring in the army. Since the 12th instant they amount to two divisions of Hill's corps, those of Wilcox and Heth, to about four hundred. There are a good many from other commands. The desertions are chiefly from the North Carolina regiments, and especially those from the western part of that state. ....." Letter # 960, page 910, The Wartime Papers of Robert E. Lee, edited by Clifford Dowdey and Louis H. Manarin. bc
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 6, 2009 10:56:41 GMT -6
BC, I appreciate the joke (and don't doubt for a minute the Lee letter--desertions were rife!), but I certainly believe the state motto on the license plates has more to do with the picture of the Wright Bros. flyer also on the license plates. Maybe I'm being too literal minded here, but as a Civil War nut I do appreciate the tidbit. Thanks. There are certainly quite a number of folks down here who would take exception and have a lot to say about NC in the war though. By the way, I am not a native Carolinian so do not take any offense at that story, history is history (we wish).
JW~
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Post by bc on Mar 6, 2009 13:47:33 GMT -6
I always try to razz my NC friends every chance I get.
By the way, if Croatoan was not far from the present site, why didn't they find anything on the return trip in 1589?
bc
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Post by Diane Merkel on Mar 10, 2009 13:36:11 GMT -6
montea - I was born in the Tidewater area (Portsmouth Naval Hospital to be exact) but spent most of my life in Fairfax County. Your ancestors were in the REAL Virginia!
runaheap - I did know about finding Jamestown in the river. I visited the fake Jamestown about 20 years ago, and the tour guide pointed to the river and said something to the effect that some believe Jamestown was underwater there. I was delighted to hear they found it.
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Post by runaheap on Mar 11, 2009 8:56:02 GMT -6
Was TDY at Fort Useless or Eustis in early 67. Went to Jamestown (the fake one) then. Always enjoyed the Yorktown and Williamsburg trips. Dated a gal from William and Mary back then (she was a great tour guide).
James-They didn't call them boys "Tar Heels" fer nothin. Interesting bunch of characters from NC during the Civil War, Govenor Vance during that period was certainly a Hoot! Is it the University of Virginia that handles that dig?
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Post by Jas. Watson on Mar 11, 2009 11:19:13 GMT -6
The Jamestown (foundations) you see in the national park is the real one so to speak, but Jamestown existed for some time. The old original fort (the 'real' Jamestown) is what was thought to be under the river...but as it happens it is not--it's mostly there and was found. I believe the dig was sponsored by the York River Institute or something similiar, and I believe the National Geographic Society did some of the funding too--not the University. Just yesterday I was having lunch witha colleague and she was bemoaning the fact that when the Nat'l Geographic Soc. gets involved in anything, they take over--all notes, photos, etc. etc. have to be turned over to them ('propertywise'). I found that hard to believe, they were involved (indirectly in the LBH excavations too) but I figured she'd know better than I. I'm a Zeb Vance fan too--he was a real hoot! They don't make polititions like him any more--unfortunately.
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Post by shan on Apr 9, 2009 3:52:05 GMT -6
I'm sorry if this is an inappropriate place to pose my question, but I'm afraid I have no idea how one starts a new topic, { actually, if anyone can tell me I'd be grateful,} but having said that my question does concern bones.
I have been searching through my dusty piles of book for any information I can find on the bodies or at least four men that were reportedly found somewhere along the Nye Cartwright--Luce ridge area, men who may or may not have been either escapees--Standing Bears paintings of the battle certainly seems to depict them as such--or whether they were in fact carrying a message no doubt asking for assistance.
There is very little written about these men, few theories as to how they got there, who they were, or who discovered them, and almost nothing on when their bodies were moved, if at all. In his book ' Evidence and the Custer Enigma,' Jerome Greene seems to place the bodies somewhere towards the South of Luce ridge, slightly to the North of Medicine Tail coulee. Unfortunately the map being rather small is very cluttered with information, making it difficult to hard to pin down exactly where the bodies were, but from my reading, it appears that two of the bodies were found slightly North East of the other two men, causing one to wonder whether these men may be from two different episodes, unlikely I know, especially given that four horse skeletons were found nearby, so I think there is a strong case that these bodies are the remains of the men we see in the aforementioned paintings.
I suppose there is just a possibility that they died early in the battle, but as I believe that the right wing took few, if any casualties at all as they traversed Luce and Nye Cartwright ridges, one can only assume that these men were killed much later in the battle. Any information, be it books or opinion would be gratefully appreciated,
Shan
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Post by biggordie on Apr 9, 2009 8:00:39 GMT -6
David:
See my reply on the other forum. I'm not going to repeat it here, but anyone interested can look over there. The question, and the answers from Fred Wagner and myself [so far] are in the thread The Morbid Details.
Gordie
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Post by southfork on Apr 9, 2009 10:07:05 GMT -6
montea - I was born in the Tidewater area (Portsmouth Naval Hospital to be exact) but spent most of my life in Fairfax County. Your ancestors were in the REAL Virginia! My first steps were taken in Fairfax County. It is REAL Virginia, though I do tell people now that I grew up in 'occupied' Northern Virginia. I lived for a time in spitting distance from a marker at Bailey's Crossroads to Jeb Stuart that has long since been bulldozed. I have since retreated to the Valley but that's going fast to the Yankees now too.
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Post by herosrest on Aug 25, 2009 14:26:32 GMT -6
The question is prompted in large part by the marked discrepancy between M.V. Sheridan's report of the re-burials of all bodies "with three feet of earth mounded and packed on each and the head marked by a cedar stake," versus that of P.W. Norris's "partially unearthed bodies" . . . "not in graves, but . . . with a sprinkling or earth upon each or in groups as they fell last year." Norris was supposedly describing the field after Sheridan finished. Suspicion of Norris's accounts borne of a motive to sell newspapers is offset by suspicion of Sheridan's by a motive to whitewash. If the photos reveal human bones, it may tend to give credence to Norris and by extension denigrate MVS's account, perhaps extending to his report that the remains of Keogh, Yates, Smith and the other officers were identified with ease and recovered. Akers probably needs something to do with his time, like isolating each individual bone in every photo, finding its skeletal origins, and presenting findings in a year or so. Doing so could restore an eroding reputation for deep-seated psychosis. MA Hi montea. I have plowed through a deal of reading of LBH material recently, some quite obscure, when the source l refer to comes to hand i'll pass it on. Sheridan's big brother or possibly Sherman, visited the battlefield 1877, his escort spent time recovering the recovered graves. A specific cause for the problem was put down to torrential hail storms which simply battered the terrain. This phenomoenon was not infrequent and recorded elsewhere. Army Letters from an Officer's Wife, 1871-1888 by Frances Marie Antoinette Mack Roe. Norris as Superintendent of Yellowstone met them all as the Generals travelled about the area that year. He wrote a book as well, The calumet of the Coteau and included a map he sketched of the battlefield in 1877 when he recovered his friend Charlie Reynolds remains from the valley. MAP files.myopera.com/herosrest/albums/805954/NorrisMAP.jpg The problem with burials is simply they were not graves, dug six feet into the earth. Linked www.archive.org/details/reportsinspecti00deptgoog are memoranda made by Col. O.M. Poe, U.S. Engineers, ADC. accompanying Gen W.T. Sherman from Missisippi River to the Pacific, July to October, 1877. A very interesting overview of activity that year. Very, very much was taking place and the battlefield was not the lonely neglected place which is assumed. Virtually the entire Northern Cheyenne host passed the winter months until spring in the Greasy Grass valley, large areas of timber were cleared by gangs working to send lumber for construction of Fort Custer, one of Hoffmans early and famous pictures shows a temporary lumber mill that was in place. The 'Where Custer Fell' picture, you can just see its roof and upper frame. The weather caused untold havoc with efforts to keep burials covered. Torrential hail pounded the graves. A wagon train of settlers, including William A. Allen travelled up the valley during early August, 1877 and spent 3 days walking the battlefield. Allen includes a chapter on his experience in his Book Twenty years in the Rocky Mountains. He also wrote Blankets and Moccasins: Plenty Coups and His People with Glendolin D. Wagner, author of Old Neutriment about John Burkman, Custer's orderly for nine years, and a biography of Calamity Jane. Allen was one of the founders of Billings, MT. 'Doc Allen', not the one who ended on boot hill after dancing on the end of a rope.
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Post by herosrest on Sept 2, 2009 13:35:06 GMT -6
From LT. James H. Bradley's journal.
Sunday, 14th May, 1876 - "...... Soon after camp was formed, a terrific hail-storm suddenly burst upon us accompanied by a high wind and followed by a deluge of rain. The herd stampeded to the camp and into the timber, tents were blown down, pools formed all through the camp, drowning out the occupants of many tents which stood in some cases in nearly a foot of water, everybody got wet, and a good many lost their suppers. ...... ...... Major Brisbin and Lieutenants English and Johnson were among the unfortunates that the wind left out of doors. It was a terrible storm, but soon subsided; and there was a busy time through the rest of the after noon moving and repitching tents, fishing personal effects out of the water and mud, and reclaiming the stampeded animals. It continued to rain most of the night, the tents all leaked, bedding was drenched, and we had rather a cheerless time of it. This camp will long linger in the memory of its unfortunate occupants as Hail-stone or Drowned-out camp "
Friday, 9th June, 1876 -"...... The arrival of the 7th Cavalry at Glendive Creek disproved the reported gathering of the hostiles in that quarter, and our whole force is now to push up the river after the village we had first discovered on Tongue River and afterward on the Rosebud. The 7th Cavalry under Custer will scour the country south of the Yellowstone, while we return up the north bank to prevent the Indians from escaping to this side. As it is feared they may attempt to do so, the four companies of the 2nd Cavalry were placed under orders to move back at once, and would have got off today had not a heavy rain set in, accompanied by hail, which caused the movement to be suspended until to-morrow.
Wednesday, 21st June, 1876 - "...... The camp was barely formed when a terrible gale arose, followed by a storm of hailstones as large as walnuts. The herd showed a strong disposition to stampede, and it required great exertions to prevent them from doing so. The hailstones diminished in size as the storm continued, and soon turned to rain; but the shower was of short duration, and before dark the sky partially cleared and the sun treated us to a gorgeous display in the west.
DIARY OF MATTHEW CARROLL - MASTER IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTATION FOR COLONEL JOHN GIBBON'S EXPEDITION AGAINST THE SIOUX INDIANS, 1876. - "21 June 1876. Boat arrived. We started for Fort Pease at 10 A. M. Boat went up to Rosebud where it carried Custer's command over. Detained two and a half hours waiting for orders. Made seventeen miles. Reached camp at 7 P. M., and as we turned mules out had a heavy hail-storm, some hail-stones being larger than pigeon's eggs. Had to keep mules in corral and they had no opportunity to graze until morning. Lieutenants Low and Kenzie arrived in camp at 12 o'clock at night with a lot of sorebacked mules and two pieces of artillery. "
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