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Post by biggordie on Feb 17, 2009 16:16:19 GMT -6
26
Gordie
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 17, 2009 17:42:43 GMT -6
Benet primed cases in 45-70 (either charge load)are indicative of military cases.
Chief of Ordnance Stephen Vincent Benét
Benét, Stephen. 1868. Metallic Ammunition for the Springfield Breech-Loading Rifle-Musket. Frankford Arsenal. Philadelphia, U.S.A.. 19p.
Benét, Stephen. 1873. Report of the Board of Ordnance Officers for the Proper Caliber for Small-Arms. Government Printing Office. Washington, U.S.A..
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Post by biggordie on Feb 17, 2009 22:51:20 GMT -6
And you were right about the repeated attempts by warriors to reload those cases by putting a percussion cap in it. There were, as one might imagine, several reported accidents involving same reloaded cartridges [not reported in the modern day sense - anecdotal].
Gordie
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lizs
Full Member
Discovering the West
Posts: 161
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Post by lizs on Feb 17, 2009 23:18:37 GMT -6
Attaboyattribution!
Now... back to the debate... eyes darting from side to side... munching popcorn. Hey vendor, can I get another frosty one??
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 18, 2009 9:46:08 GMT -6
Jump in lizs
As GB says
So don't you sit upon the shoreline And say you're satisfied Choose to chance the rapids And dare to dance the tide...yes
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Post by rch on Feb 19, 2009 11:58:43 GMT -6
While it is not often noticed, Custer Ridge extends beyond where Custer made his gallant and soul stirring Last Stand.
Custer Ridge extends down to and beyond Route 212 and is still high enough to require a cut through the ridge for 212 to run through. Moreover a finger branches off Custer Ridge and runs above and parallel to the south side of Route 212. I think this hill mass formed a barrier to Indians coming up from the LBH and while it channelled warriors toward Custer it also prevented them from going into Crazy Horse Ravine in large numbers or threatening the eastern slopes of Custer Ridge. Therefore there was at the time Custer organized his last stand no need to defend the eastern slope.
rch
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 21, 2009 15:56:37 GMT -6
Here's something just to mess with your minds:
"Personally I think and always have that the best guns in the hands of the Indians, were the carbines taken from Custer's men and the 70 grain ammunition they got from the same source. We took, at least I think they all took, rifle ammunition instead of carbine 55 gr. On the hill most of the bullets came in with a zip sound. When a zing-g-g sound came, that made you take notice."
(Chas. A. Varnum)
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Post by biggordie on Feb 21, 2009 19:50:58 GMT -6
Read the literature. Look at a map. Weiibert did the vast majority of his collecting, if not all of it, OUTSIDE the boundaries. Backus Ridge, Blummer-Nye-Cartwright and Luce Ridges are not part of the NM. Neither are MTC, SSR, Weir or Lone Tree Ridge nor the Reno battlefield, nor the bluff ravines and edges, nor Reno Creek, nor the Crow's Nest. Not Kansas City, either. One need not have a "modern" lab to tell the difference - the wadding used in the smaller loading leaves tell-tale marks, and trace. A trained eye, some knowledge of ammunition and a decent magnifying glass will do the trick, in most instances. It has been well-accepted, for years, in most quarters, that the troops used the lighter load. Whiz, zip, swish, zing....... Gordie PS Where did you get the info on Joe Blummer collecting cases in 1946?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 21, 2009 20:04:50 GMT -6
Varnum was not correct. The marking on the inside of the cartridge indicated 55 gr. They even found remnants of the spacing material.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Feb 22, 2009 9:11:56 GMT -6
Hmm, stashed in my stuff somewhere I have a couple/few of those old ctg cases myself...I'll have to take a closer look. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or another, just curious. Unfortunately every one of them is 'stepped on' so might be hard to see inside...not exactly sure what I'm looking for either.
JW~
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2009 9:48:53 GMT -6
You have your own crime lab at you home. If you find nothing how would know it was not a 45-70 in the first place and placed at some different time or never there?
In order for Varnum to be correct they should not find any evidence inside the fired cartridge cases recovered. They did and found pieces of the wad material indicating .45/55 loaded .45/70 cases.
Sometimes we forget the credential of those that determined they were .45-55.
Douglas D. Scott, Ph.D., has 40 years experience in archaeological investigations, focusing on nineteenth century military forts and battlefields. He is best known for his ballistics analysis of cartridge cases and bullets at the Little Bighorn Battlefield (Custer´s Last Stand). He is a member of the Association of Firearms and Tool Mark Examiners. He has over 10 years experience in forensic archaeological investigations working on cases in the U.S. southwest, and internationally in El Salvador, Croatia, Cyprus, and Rwanda. He teaches Forensic Archaeology.
Gilbert, B. Miles 1971 The Use of X-Rays in Cartridge Identification. Plains Anthropologist 16(53):236-37.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2009 11:43:13 GMT -6
There's no mutual exclusion, though, Ranger.
Varnum, who assuredly would know or should have, said definitely that his guys took .45/70, although I don't know what group he refers to in the letter to Graham. (There's several stories of trading with infantry for their larger loads in Cozzins, I think, throughout the west.) He says he thought everyone did, but does not claim it. He thought by the sound of some incoming shots, that others had as well since here they were coming at him.
He could, of course, be totally wrong, but there's no reason to assume that. Since that story appears late, and it has little to do with the outcome (the Sioux were not trained), and it's not that important, it can be tossed.
Yet, didn't Scott and others find cases that did not have current evidence of wadding? I'm almost sure it was on this board. Of course, we still don't know when those particular cases appeared on the field, fired by who at what. And again: have the hills around Reno Hill been searced as assiduosly for cases as elsewhere? I don't think so. That would be where the .45/70's would be found, since that's where Varnum noted it.
Forensic archaeology is, to my understanding, a self declared field by those who want to be forensic archaeologists. There is, as yet, no degree or specific course of study that I know of. It also is annoying that people just publish their degrees without telling us what it is in. Scott got his degree here in Boulder, and since he heads a department of anthropology I'm assuming it's relevant to that. Normally, a safe bet, although Ward Churchill has wobbled that assumption. Scott and Fox have been far more responsibly reticent in their claims (often phrased as 'possible') than those who utilize them.
Still there's this annoying procedure of announcing "I have an advanced degree" in these web bios without telling us what it is in. If English Lit, what the hey difference does it make in a question of science? But people have been trained to whimper and not inquire further. A group called Duck's Breath Mystery Theater did satire on that with a radio show called Dr. Science a while back. "I have a Master's Degree", intoned the lead. "In SCIENCE!!" yelped the announcer as if that wiped away potential opposition. The three minute shows with bouncy music revealed the degree holder to be a bag of misinformation and was hysterical. Of course, you don't get degrees is 'science,' per se. Or for years, anyway. You get them in anthropology or physics or something a tad more specific. And a Master's Degree is a hall monitor's pass equivilant in most scientific disciplines now.
And the fact is, today entire MLM and New Age horse leavings are sold entirely by that method to half educated idiots. People announced as non-specific 'scientists' and portrayed in lab coats give heft in their minds. And they end up with or selling vitamins and tin foil hat crapola to reclaim an investment.
It's like police flashing a badge. People nod as if the visual graphic display of all badges were hardwired in the mind. But truely, who really knows what a badge is supposed to look like, if it is for real if it has validity to the issue in question before them. It's not smart to lip off to an officer, but nobody could possibly know what ALL the badges in their home district would look like. And police flip open their wallets to display the badge and close it quick anyway. And there have been cases here in Boulder of fake 'undercover' cops and traffic cops with the light bar and there are instances elsewhere.
My point being, it's not good to roll up like a salted snail when someone announces a degree unless you know what it is in. And from where. And if it is true. And retain understanding the degree holder can still be an idiot.
Coffee. God's ambrosia.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2009 12:15:11 GMT -6
They do teach forensic archeology here and it shows the linkage between Nebraska State Patrol Crime Lab who looked at the LBH cartridge collection and Scott. www.nebrwesleyan.edu/cont_ed/mfs/faculty.phpI think what this goes to is a better understanding of the Nebraska State Patrol crime lab patricipation in looking at the LBH artifacts. The best answer might be in the records of ammuniton sent to the FAL for cavalry use. Varmum states "were the carbines taken from Custer's men and the 70 grain ammunition they got from the same source" then qualifies it as we. Maybe officers bought their own weapons and ammuntion. NCOs that had brought rifles may have different ammunition. We know the Indians had Sharps in .50-70 is there a difference in zing from a .50-70 and .45-70. I would also challenge that distance traveled by the bullet would have an effect also. The closer the discharge the faster the bullet would be traveling. AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 22, 2009 12:47:46 GMT -6
Police show their badge to protect themselves. It is required to identify yourself as a peace officer and a badge facilitates that identification. It doesn't matter if the person being shown the badge recognizes it. There are plenty of fake badges but if someone uses them in an attempted official capacity it is impersonating an officer and subject to criminal prosecution.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Feb 22, 2009 13:14:04 GMT -6
I understand the purpose of flashing the badge, my observation is that most people have no clue whether it IS a badge or a fake.
I stand corrected on forensic archaeology and am behind the curve and 8-ball both. It is, I gather, a class, or series of classes. There is, however, no degree in forensic archaeology to my knowledge from anywhere as yet although there is for forensic anthropology.
"Battlefield" archaeology, forensic archaeology, and forensic anthropology are distinct if related, it seems, and I note I'd started using them interchangeably. Anything called forensic something is law and crime related via the accepted methods of the discipline next listed. So, I'm embarrassed I let myself succumb and have subbed forensic archaeology for battlefield archaeology, which is what originally was claimed for the LBH.
Still, nothing has changed the objections to the conclusions drawn.
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