cobb
New Member
"I'm as good once as I ever was".
Posts: 1
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Post by cobb on Jan 13, 2009 1:11:02 GMT -6
I am new to the board so bear with my silly thoughts. I'm an old Scotch Swede, and a few other European counter parts I'd rather not mention, close to my end, partnered with a Cherokee German woman I adore. I'm very ashamed of the white past we whites all share. If we, as a country continue to go broke, why don't we give the American Indian a chance to move back into all the National Parks provided he lived historically. By that I humbly suggest the pre 1900 lifestyle. Of course he could have his laptop and cell phone in the tepees, but I wouldn't want to see a bunch of pickups, refrigerators, etc. (keep those out of the park) cluttering up the park, keep it in our beautiful past. If this isn't in the right place, move it or delete it. My .02 cents.
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Post by biggordie on Jan 13, 2009 1:38:11 GMT -6
cobb:
Welcome to the forum. Nothing wrong with your placement of your post, and certainly worth at least two cents and a bent fishhook.
I dunno about National Parks - you'd probably run into a lot of negatives there - but I will say that one of the things that always amazes me about the American West [and Canadian too] is the vast amount of land that just seems to be sitting there. I've often wondered why we went to such lengths to forcibly evict people from the land, and then not utilize it.
There certainly is room for a great debate, and I hope that your post will start one. I likely would not participate, but that's because I hate debates, having flunked sandbox at school.
I see that you are in Anthony, which as I recall is just south of Harper, in Harper County. We Harpers are everywhere - quelle koinkydinky.
Regards,
Gord Harper
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Post by BrokenSword on Jan 13, 2009 7:52:25 GMT -6
Well - without the buffalo herds, there would be no chance for any Indian to actually live life as the tribes did in the old days. That is, historically. That would bring us back to pickup trucks, refrigerators and the rest. Despite what Ewell Gibbons said, much of the Great Plains (now) offer very little to make survival possible for even a very small party of people living off the land. I guess it would be an artificial existence in most ways. Rather like some sort of roofless museum exhibit.
It would be like asking us to live without Burger-Doodles and Wally-Marts!
I DO love your 'out of the box' thinking on it though.
BS
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Post by Melani on Jan 13, 2009 9:09:47 GMT -6
Just curious, Gordie--utilize it for what? How?
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Post by biggordie on Jan 13, 2009 10:27:04 GMT -6
Mel:
I dunno, not being a resources utilization type; but I've always thought that there would be room for a smallish [the only exact mathematical term I know - except for largish or largisher] buffalo herd to still roam free. Certainly plenty of room to raise horses - not everywhere, of course.
As far as "us" utilizing it, we seem to be able to find profit in virtually every imaginable space - mining, forestry, oil, coal, real estate development, agriculture, whatever.
I rather doubt that there would be many takers for "living the old ways" any more. There are a couple of very small bands of Cree or Assiniboin, or other, who were "living wild" a few years ago. They did pick up their monthly dole, and went to civilization for medical care [and probably used portable generators for electricity, modern weapons for hunting etc.].
I just hate to see the land sitting empty, knowing what was perpetrated in order to get it. It's as if somebody busted into your home, shot your hubby, threw you out and then left the house empty.
Gordie
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Post by bc on Jan 13, 2009 11:19:52 GMT -6
Welcome Cobb!! Always good to have another Kansan on board. That makes 4 or 5 of us. Kansas City, McPherson, Winfield, and now Anthony. I'd suggest a Wichita roundtable but I don't know anything.
Around here, I've got swedes and scotsman's all around me so I can handle another one. Lindsborg aka Little Sweden is swedish and has their swedish festivals. McPherson is "not" Scottish (although I'm part scotch-irish) and doesn't really have any type of scottish population or anything of scottish ethnicity about it, but the town is named for a Scotsman, General McPherson, so now the chamber of commerce started an annual Scottish Festival with highland games and clans showing up. Turned out to achieve some national fame for the festival and all the people who come from around the country to attend. McPherson and the band of gypsy's inhabiting this place claiming some type of Scottish heritage is about as phony as it gets.
By the way, the gov has already given Oklahome to the NAs but they didn't want it all. The gov could consider giving them back the Badlands National Park in Dakota but the place isn't bad enough to give to the NAs. Any historical living now would have to include living near a prairie dog town for a food supply. Keep up the good work.
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Post by Treasuredude on Jan 13, 2009 21:05:23 GMT -6
I'm very ashamed of the white past we whites all share. What happened to the Native Americans was a disgrace. It is one of the low points in our history. That being said, why would you feel ashamed? You were not personally responsible. Let go of the guilt. Also, none of the Native Americans I know would want to live permanently in tepees, etc. They are used to the comforts just like everyone else. Maybe for a weekend of re-enacting but after that a shower and soft bed would be nice. Gordie -- the land is not sitting empty. Farms and ranches abound.
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Post by biggordie on Jan 13, 2009 21:40:32 GMT -6
Dude -
I know that - I have worked on a few - but there are still vast tracts of emptiness.
Gordie
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 13, 2009 23:53:03 GMT -6
Empty is good.
Cobb, I'm wondering what your partner's Cherokee family thinks of that idea. I would bet they'd prefer old Scotch Swedes be sent to live in parks with a 1900 lifestyle.
Seriously, if you truly are ashamed of your "white past" -- which I doubt -- you wouldn't suggest turning Indians into tourist attractions who can have their lifestyles dictated by whites pretending to help them.
Next you'll think we should help those poor nappy-haired Negroes by letting them stay in great big apartment houses for free. If we call those "projects," it will sound progressive, won't it?
What you've suggested is no different than forcing Indians onto reservations 130+ years ago and expecting them to adapt to our standards of living. Think about it.
Diane
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Post by stevewilk on Jan 14, 2009 0:39:27 GMT -6
Living "historically" would likely mean hikers and backpackers being found scalped and shot full of arrows. I doubt the European countries whose people flock to the parks would go for this. What about intertribal warfare? Perhaps the NPS could sell tickets to German and Japanese tourists to watch these battles take place, of course after the next Old Faithful eruption.
Gordie, like Diane says, empty is good. The vastness and solitude are major draws for those of us living in the west. Land may be empty but it is accounted for. Most of the mountain west is owned by the Feds: Forest Service, NPS, BIA, DOE, DOD, BLM and others. Something like 87% of Nevada is Federal land. Water of course is another major issue with not enough of it to sustain large populations. I still don't know how Las Vegas keeps growing...they will drain the Colorado dry eventually. The Great Basin never had large native populations; the Goshute, Paiute and Western Shoshone were small tribes who barely eked out a survival lifestyle with game scarce and little vegetation.
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Post by bc on Jan 15, 2009 0:19:02 GMT -6
If the NAs are really in a mood to go back to the land, I can probably find some good land somewhere that can be traded for some the land they ruined by building a casino on it. Can't herd buffalo in a paved parking lot.
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Post by Melani on Jan 15, 2009 15:11:23 GMT -6
What Diane and steve said--empty is good. If nothing else, we need open green areas to produce oxygen and psychic well-being. The Indian Wars are over, and there are new ways for all of us to live. Most white people don't want to go back to 19th century ways except for a weekend's reenactment--anybody see The Frontier House? Those guys were lucky to survive their own inexperience, and the ones who did the best cheated and set up a more or less modern still to produce and sell alcohol! And when you think about it, many 19th century pioneers didn't survive, and it wasn't always the Indians that got them. One reason for big families in those days is that few people expected all their children to live to grow up. Of course, a buffalo herd or two wouldn't really louse up the environment. I had a buffalo burger for dinner the other night, and it was delicious--and lower fat, too, so I'm told.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jan 15, 2009 18:36:32 GMT -6
Living "historically" would likely mean hikers and backpackers being found scalped and shot full of arrows. I doubt the European countries whose people flock to the parks would go for this. What about intertribal warfare? Perhaps the NPS could sell tickets to German and Japanese tourists to watch these battles take place, of course after the next Old Faithful eruption. Gordie, like Diane says, empty is good. The vastness and solitude are major draws for those of us living in the west. Land may be empty but it is accounted for. Most of the mountain west is owned by the Feds: Forest Service, NPS, BIA, DOE, DOD, BLM and others. Something like 87% of Nevada is Federal land. Water of course is another major issue with not enough of it to sustain large populations. I still don't know how Las Vegas keeps growing...they will drain the Colorado dry eventually. The Great Basin never had large native populations; the Goshute, Paiute and Western Shoshone were small tribes who barely eked out a survival lifestyle with game scarce and little vegetation. Their toilets flush into Lake Mead.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Jan 15, 2009 22:46:40 GMT -6
In the category of minor coincidences, my wife is a city attorney for a few Texas cities, one of which is Bee Cave, a suburb of Austin. On Monday she was in a Bee Cave city council meeting that was also attended by Paul Mitchell, of hair product fame, or infamy, or whatever. When the item he was there for came up he spoke to the Council and mentioned that he is involved with a foundation that funds the purchase of land that is then returned to the Native American tribes that originally occupied the area, such as land in the Carolinas for Cherokees.
I've now told you more about this topic than I know. MA
"The wind always blows in the Texas Panhandle. Once it stopped blowing and all the chickens fell over."
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lizs
Full Member
Discovering the West
Posts: 161
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Post by lizs on Jan 16, 2009 22:08:20 GMT -6
Living "historically" would likely mean hikers and backpackers being found scalped and shot full of arrows. Gee, I resemble that remark - minus being scalped and shot full of arrows. ;D Interesting concept (and hey, I'm a newbie here too). But I'd agree with many points already made. Empty is good. It's good for the souls of people who've lost touch with the land. I live in a small town, but love to get out into places "away" from the trappings of everyday life. To put NAs into a park - especially into a park - would be the equivalent of, well, kind of setting up a zoo. It seems it would be inviting people to come look at them... and I also doubt they would want to return to old ways, at least for the most part. Just for a different way of looking at things, in my area we have old order Amish communities. And there are at least four tour companies across a couple counties offering tours to various homes and farms. The tours have been approved by each smaller Amish area's bishop. Tourists visit their shops to buy goods such as furniture, some foodstuffs (although most of that now needs to be sold in area farmer's markets, according to Minnesota rules, after there was a slight outbreak of food poisoning), quilts, etc. Then again, it's a private endeavor, which has equivalents on the reservation. We're not talking parks. In conclusion, the empty space looks mighty good to me. We have earned ourselves the right to *not* put something on every little inch. I guess you're not familiar with people who feel that way. There's quite a few of us, though.
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