montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 30, 2008 18:15:05 GMT -6
Now you've done it again! "Broad of Tourism . . . she wasn't interested." Do you have any idea how much trouble I'm going to get in plagiarizing that with Broads of Education, Broads of Adjustment and others broads with whom I come into contact who do not recognize cute the minute they hear it?
BTW, for the other small group that is paying attention to the Black Pipe Museum mini-drama, Shannon Smith kindly replied to an e-mail inquiry saying she had not heard of it, but forwarded the question to someone she knew who might have if it existed.
Martin, SD is certainly a more likely candidate for such a museum than Morton township (which did have a few folks and a church, long ago), as pointed out already, and this tidbit of information is part of what makes the seller's presentation so insidiously tempting. How easy to explain a mistaken location for the museum by one misplaced vowel in some subsequent explantion.
Similarly, how tempting to assume that Major Donald Bradley's LBH veteran grandfather who allegedly amassed the collection was Lt. James Bradley of the 7th Infantry. However, post-purchase research for the four items I acquired revealed that when Lt. Bradley died in 1877 he left behind a daughter and a pregnant widow who then gave birth to another daughter.
Oh, and no such museum in Morton, North Dakota either. MA
"They were right, tight boys, never sulky or slow, A fruitful, a goodly muster. The eldest died at the Alamo. The youngest fell with Custer." Stephen Vincent Benet The Ballad of William Sycamore
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 30, 2008 20:27:57 GMT -6
And to think I used to hate poetry. I now have renewed respect for SVB.
Someone please explain how OAP(B) translates as "of all people." If the "(B)" is indicating an option as opposed to a subgroup, then OAP places should be expressed as OAP(A). However, if people is a subgroup of places, it should be expressed as OAPP. That way, in civil discourse, one could distinguish between them as "Ope" and "Ope-pee."
I need to rest now. . . .
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Post by cefil on Dec 30, 2008 21:00:30 GMT -6
Hey, montea...it's great that you heard from Shannon Smith. One would think that if there had been a museum in Martin with a significant collection, she'll be able to learn something about it from someone at OLC.
I've done some more searching for the elusive Ormie Brimmer book, but I am still coming up empty. I've now checked several fairly comprehensive sources, and can find no trace of it. That still doesn't prove it wasn't published (that old hard-to-prove-a-negative thing), but if it was actually published, it's a fairly safe bet that it was a very small edition...and it didn't make its way into the collections of any major (or even semi-major) research libraries anywhere in the country. I'd call it highly dubious, at best.
Here's another head-scratching aspect: Gramercy Press was the name of a fictional publishing company made famous in a series of MCI ads some time ago. Now, there is also a Gramercy that actually publishes some books (mostly backlist and lower-tier titles), but the fact that Ormie's alleged publisher has the same name as a famous faux publisher makes me go hmmmm...
I can really feel your pain on this one. Each individual question (half-truth, semi-truth, obfuscation) can perhaps be explained away, but taken as a whole they lead to a very suspicious conclusion.
Keep after 'em...and good luck!
cefil
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Post by cefil on Dec 30, 2008 21:28:13 GMT -6
Now you've done it again! "Broad of Tourism . . . she wasn't interested." Do you have any idea how much trouble I'm going to get in plagiarizing that with Broads of Education, Broads of Adjustment and others broads with whom I come into contact who do not recognize cute the minute they hear it? Don't even get me started on Library Broads...I've worked with a number of them over the years, and all I can say is...ai yi yi. cefil PS: If this post should fall into the wrong hands, I will disavow any knowledge of its contents.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 31, 2008 0:47:24 GMT -6
Yeah, I called Gramercy, or at least the one that is now an imprint of Random House, and was told "nope," no trace, but you should try Strawberry Hill," which turned out to be a very helpful bookfinder outfit that also struck out, as had Bookfinder before it.
A lot of the info. did not come from the seller's eBay posting, but from direct communication with him. He volunteered the info. about the book with no prompting, said it was 375 pp. long and that the last time he had seen one sell, it went for $500 dollars at a gun show. He said he had two copies, but they were packed away with his father's things and he couldn't lay his hands on them easily.
Thinking it would cultivate future commerce, I chatted breezily away, sort of like right now, and postscripted that if he wanted to check my bona fides to google my name, thinking that he might get the silly notion that I am solvent and would want to try to sell me more. Instead, his communications became like that set of identical twins I used to date--Sparse and Terse--which led in turn to my casting off the security blanket of faith and becoming pesky, sort of like Renee Descarte, only stupid, and about Custer artifacts instead of the meaning of life.
Like I said before, I would love to learn that this is all just well-founded insane paranoia, like so much else in my corner of existence, and that the four little relics I purchased from him really are pictured in a book along with other fine things left on the ground that bloody Sunday, but it is looking more and more like a well-crafted fraud. C'est la vie; c'est la guerre. MA
"It’s been said that I’m older than dirt, and it’s true. I remember when dirt was invented. It was a major breakthrough. No more treading water for us."
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Post by bc on Dec 31, 2008 11:05:05 GMT -6
Montea: Is there anyway you can search the Library of Congress catalog? Chances are if it was published, they would have registered a copy there.
bc
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 31, 2008 12:29:30 GMT -6
Good suggestion BC. I'll give it a try.
The deadline for a response from the seller, per my demand letter, is January 22 for either a satisfactory explanation or a full refund. Then, assuming I hear nothing, I intend to pull the legal lanyard deceptive trade practices-wise. I may not win, or even be able to track him down and bring him to bay, but assuming this is the fraud it appears to be, it goes way beyond the fudging, embellishment, supposition, and buyer beware offerings that accompany most artifacts of questionable heritage.
I've been collecting historic artifacts for nearly 35 years, have been burned various times, but have occasionally decided to roll the dice and purchase despite personal doubts about an item. LBH items are hens teeth rare and notoriously subject to fakery, but the apparent sincerety and detail of the purported provenance of these, coupled with the short time frame one has to acquire an item on eBay, convinced me, as D. Crockett would say, to "Go ahead." That was, of course, before the knife found beneath GAC was offered for sale.
Anyhoo, the Sun Dance is beginning, the paint is being mixed, and I'm sharpening my skinning knife, or at least I seem to be singing a lot of bold-sounding death songs and war chants. MA
"We are the lint that falls on the path when the Lord decides He’ll walk it, that blows in the wind He summons to blow. We are the hole in God’s pocket."
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Post by bc on Dec 31, 2008 13:29:00 GMT -6
Montea: I didn't have much luck with a number of different searches with the Library of Congress online catalog.
Seems to me that a failure to respond to your letter may form a prima facie case for intent to permanently deprive. Talk to your local DA about filing some type of felony theft by deception charge and then extradite the dude and at least have him post a high enough cash bond, no surety, to cover your loss. Hopefully an arrest would get his attention.
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Post by markland on Dec 31, 2008 14:12:49 GMT -6
For what it is worth, Heitman does not have any Major David Bradley listed. Of course, he may have been a volunteer officer in either the Civil or Spanish-American War in which case he would not appear in Heitman.
And I have had no luck with Brimmer either at the LOC or at Google Books. Nothing on the web but the guy's site.
Billy
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Post by cefil on Dec 31, 2008 14:15:30 GMT -6
Thanks to my extensive web of contacts (well, OK...I know two people...but they're the right two!), I've learned a little bit more about a potential Blackpipe "museum" in Martin: Blackpipe State Bank was a family-held local institution with deep roots in the town of Martin, S.D. Martin is the seat of Bennett County, which doesn't include any American Indian reservations itself, but which is bounded on three sides by reservations. The bank's building housed an extensive family collection of Sioux artifacts that at one time won the bank's president the tribal designation "Lakota Kolayapi" (Friend of the Sioux).
The full article is here. The same ace detectives are hot on the trail of the alleged book, but so far have uncovered nothing further. Stay tuned! cefil
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Post by bc on Dec 31, 2008 15:26:38 GMT -6
How about a Bruce B. Hodson as the bank officer.
Ebay also a a guide about the blackpipe museum provenance dated back in March.
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Post by bc on Dec 31, 2008 15:32:28 GMT -6
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 31, 2008 18:13:09 GMT -6
Whoa! The thought plickens. Most interesting. Let me provide some more pieces of the puzzle, some of which, now that I re-read them, are a little more eye-opening, puzzling, contradictory, or . . . well, you'll see . . . The eBay listing said that the items came from the collection of Donald Bradley and the Black Pipe Museum in Morton, not Martin, SD, so I asked the seller to provide some information about him, as well as about an arrowhead he had listed, and this is how he reponded, with original spelling and punctuation: "Maj. Donald Bradley was born in 1928 and died in 1978. His grandfather fought at the little bighorn in Capt. gibbons detachment and that is how he got involved with collecting these artifacts. Through his grandfather he was able to acquire a large collection of artifacts taken from the battlesite in the 1880s & 1890s. He served in WWII in the OSS and was assigned to find Hitlers treasures he stole from many different countrys. After the war he resumed his interest in the American West and Gen George Custer. He met and became very good friends with my father who also had a great interest in the 7th cav and spent many years collecting and studing the battle. In the 1960s he donated a large part of his collection to the Black Pipe Museum in Martin South Dakota, when the museum got into finacial trouble in the 1980s and 90s they had to auction off all of its collection. Maj Bradley bought alot of it back as did my father (about 250-400 items) When Maj Bradley died in 1978 he left his collection and notes to my father from which a book was written. My father left the collection to me in 1999 before he died. Most of this stuff has been in our family since the 1950s. "The arrowhead is still up and will end tomorrow. Future stuff will be forks and knifes from Maj Renos & Custers positon on the hill & ridge where they dug in with their troops and planted the American flag (renos possition), more of the same that I have been selling, metal eagle kepi or hat ornimants that were found in teh pocesion of white man runs and timber libs that were taken off the battlefield against Sitting bulls orders. Sitting Bulls signature, shell casings from the battlefelid alot of personal items that some of the soldiers carried such as notes and tintypes of family that were found on the battlefield taken by Indians. Arrowheads and arrows beadwork that was found there. A hole array of items. Some things I am keeping for myself." So I now see that in this message he said Martin instead of Morton. As discussed before, if Bradley's gf was with Gibbon, it suggests Lt. James Bradley of the 7th Inf., but see: fortbenton.blogspot.com/2008/02/gallant-lieutenant-james-h-bradley-if.html, which says that James Bradley had only two daughters. If one of them nevertheless gave birth to a son named Donald Bradley in 1920, she would have been in her mid-40s. Totally possible, but one more doubt stick on the fire. Somehow Major Bradley was able to re-purchase the collection in the 1980s or 90s after dying in 1978, but then when he died he left it to Ormie Brimmer and it has been in the Brimmer family since the 1950s. Doesn't make sense, but perhaps rather than intentional deception it was mere carelessness, and he meant that the museum got in trouble in the 50s and 60s, or 60s and 70s instead of 80s and 90s, and that the Brimmer family has owned various items since the 50s, separate and apart from what Bradley and the museum owned. I really want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, not merely because I would like the artifacts to be genuine, and available to us all with confidence in their authenticity, but also because I do not want a good man's name sullied if that is what he is (notice I've never called him by name). Nevertheless, I amd prepared to respond appropriately to premeditated chicanery. In response to the message above, I naturally asked about the book, and he responded as follows: "You arer not bothering me at all, for future referance you may ask me as many question as you like any time all day long. I beleive in good customer service. It is titled BULLETS, BRASS & STONE by Ormie R Brimmer published 1981 by GRAMERCY BOOKS NEW YORK AVENEL. I have a couple but they are packed away in my fathers things he left me after he died. If I can find one I will take a picture of it and post it with this large collection he left me. The book is 375 pages long and many of the items I am selling are pictured in this book. " When I then asked about his future plans, he replied as follows: "am not sure what I am going to do. I uselly sell parts of this collection around this time of year but quit after or right at Christmas. I do alot of millitary and gun shows and antique show where these LBH items bring alot of excitment. The prices have been a little low on ebay this time so I might just wrap it up in a week or two. At a gun show I get $500 a button and $700 a bullet. " Not long thereafter the responses became fewer and less friendly. I began looking for the book, had no luck, began looking for the museum, had no luck, and turned to the LBH message board, which nearly completes the circle, or arc. Two more factoids: He is in Arizona and said he would be showing at an antique show in Tucson the weekend of Jan. 3-4, but after I purchased a 4th artifact from him, just about the time I was beginning to get supicious, I wrote to say that I would be sending payment by mail rather than PayPal, and that my family and I planned to attend the Fiesta Bowl in Arizona on Jan. 5, and that I would like to attend the antique show where he would be, to which he replied in a message dated Dec. 16: "I am leaving for a gun and western show on friday morning early in CA so I would like it here by thursday if you can so that I may get all my shipping done befor I leave. I will be gone for two weeks." Items continued to be added to eBay after December 19, the day he was to leave for California, but perhaps he arranged to have them listed after he left, and has been gone since, so that he has not yet seen the letter I mailed requesting/demanding proof or a refund. I really appreciate your interest and help in this bc and cefil. Also, as an attorney, I advise you to stay on the trail only if you are so inclined, and to exercise the Golden Rule as you do so, just in case you ever try to sell a marvelous family relic collection on eBay and somebody freaks. MA "When we were children we would ask our father if we could have money for being good, and he would always say 'No, you should be like me, and be good for nothing.'"
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Post by cefil on Dec 31, 2008 20:55:03 GMT -6
Fascinating stuff, montea. I can really see why you're conflicted about this...there's such a mixture of very specific facts, and oddly incongruous statements: Major Donald Bradley was born in 1928, but then served in the OSS in WWII?? What, they had 15 year olds in the OSS?!?
On the other hand, perhaps the carelessness with spelling is reflected in a similar carelessness with facts. Perhaps this really is an earnest man who truly believes he has some family treasures from LBH. Perhaps it's even true. Perhaps.
But I agree with you: as of yet, there are too many unverifiable loose ends, too many instances of fuzzy facts, too many "Spidey-sense" alerting inconsistencies. The jury may still be out, but I'm seeing definite signs of the writing on the jury room wall...
cefil
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Post by biggordie on Dec 31, 2008 21:40:44 GMT -6
I has some artifats what I would like to sell at one of them gum shoes, espeshally if buttons is going for 500 dollers and bullets for 700. But i'd just as soon sell them on here as anywhers.
My great great uncle, William Harper, was a offiser in the Calvary and recuited men for Custers regiment. He could not be at the Last stand as he was on recuiting dutie in Cinsinatti. He went to that battlefield with Colnel Sheridan in 1877, and picked up many arifacts such as bullets and bones and buttons, as well as half an eagle ornament which probly belonged to an offiser, since the men could not afford such a thing usully. Also some bridal parts and other intresting thing.
William was somwhat a scoundrel, but he mostly told the truth. These artifats has been in our family since 1877, and is therfor beyondout. That Mr. Markland could nodout look him up.
Sincerly yours,
Gordon Harper, gret great grandnephew of William Harper
ps if any of you is intrested in any of these items, please gather togeter all the money you can afford, and I will send you a prise liss. The hilight of the family collection is a Colt Army Model revovler, what is convirted to use metalic ammo, and has the initials "GWY" carved on the left side grip, which is of wood. This revolver is not in really good shape, and can be had for a reasonible price since it did not belong to anyone of importnse.
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