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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 27, 2008 15:28:17 GMT -6
From a website visitor: Has anyone ever heard anything about a museum called the Black Pipe Museum that allegedly existed in or near Morton, South Dakota until the 1980s or 90s, and which owned a collection of LBH artifacts that were donated to the museum by a Major David Bradley (1920-1978), of Morton, whose grandfather fought at LBH (but who was not necessarily Lt. James H. Bradley), and which are featured in a book entitled Bullets, Brass and Stone by Ormie Brimmer, 375 pp., Gramercy Books, NY, 1981? Other than the author, who apparently existed and may have even been a historical advisor for certain John Wayne movies, is anyone aware of any trace of the book, man or museum?
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Post by cefil on Dec 27, 2008 20:10:16 GMT -6
I'm still relatively new here in South Dakota (OAP), so I could be wrong about this, but I don't believe there's a Morton, SD. There is a Morton Township, but I'll bet that's not it...
If there was a Black Pipe Museum, my money is on it having been in Martin, SD, which is tucked in between the Pine Ridge and Rosebud reservations. There are a number of Black Pipes in the area, including a creek and a "community" but not, as near as I can tell, a museum (at least, not any more).
Oglala Lakota College is nearby, so perhaps your visitor could check with the History department there to see if they have any info about the museum and/or what may have happened to its collection of LBH artifacts (if, indeed, it ever existed).
(BTW, OLC is the current home of Shannon Smith, the author of Give Me Eighty Men, about the Fetterman fight.)
cefil
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Post by cefil on Dec 27, 2008 20:20:19 GMT -6
Oh, and none of the libraries here in South Dakota (OAP) seem to have a copy of that book. That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, but several of these libraries have extensive collections of almost every obscure title related, in any way, to SD...and a number also have pretty good collections of Custeriana...so you would think that such a book would show up in at least one of them.
cefil
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Post by cefil on Dec 27, 2008 21:33:20 GMT -6
Ormie Brimmer did, indeed, exist. He was born in 1922, in Idaho, and later moved to Los Angeles. On November 3, 1942, he enlisted in the army "for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law." By 1963, he was operating a bookstore of some kind, sufficient to gain him a listing in that year's edition of The American Book Trade Directory. I can find no record that he authored or published any books. (That doesn't mean he didn't do so, it just means no books of his are listed in the customary & usual sources available for a quick & dirty search.) Many of your website visitor's details seem to match some defunct auction pages cached by Google [typos in originals]: This is a brass button fuond at the battlesite of the little big horn in the 1890s. This button is a museum de-accession peice and is in used condition with a dent on the front side that almost looks like it was hit by a bullet or a hard object, this was originally part of the private estate collection of maj donald bradley of martin south dakota later donated ot the museum there and de-accessioned in 1988 privately sold to noted historian and author ormie r brimmer. This button has a beautiful patina from age and measures about 7/8 fo a inch which probably was a coat or pants button, this is part of a collection i am selling of that battlesite that was collected in the 19th century.
This is a steel button found at the battlesite of the little big horn in the 1890s. This button is in excellent condition with some glue residue on one side from being displayed at a museum for mayn years. This button originlaly came from the private collection of maj. Donald bradley who later donated it to a museum. This button with many other items from that battlesite was later sold to mr ormie brimmer who was a noted collector & historian when the museum lost its funding and closed down. Mr ormie brimmer owned a rae book and document store ni covina calif untill the 1970s. This button and many other items from the battlesite of the little big horn has been in our private collection for over 60 years and has never been on the open market nutil now. This button measures just under 3/4 of an inch and most likely came from a trooper's shirt or collar. These buttons were also known to be worn by northern plains american indians and were found on or by them after the battle. I am selling part of my families collection, this is a great epice of history for any collection and comes with a c.O. A that has been notorized as being 100% authentic and original.
This is a solid lead bullet that was ofund at the battlesite of the little big horn in montana in the 1890s. It is in excellent condition with some glue residue on one side from being displayed at a umseum for many years. This bullet measures about 1 1/8 inches long by about 1/2 inch and original comes from the private collection of major donald bradley later donated to a museum in south dakota and later bought by the noted collector & historian ormie brimmer who owned a rare book & document store in covina calif. This bullet and many other items & artifacts from that battlesite have been in our family's private collection for over 60 years. This is a wonderful historic item that has never been on the marekt befor and it will come with a c. O. A that has been notorized as being 100% authentic and original. Mr ormei brimmer was a good friend of john wayne and worked with him on several films as a advisor and historian.
It all seems rather suspect to me. If, for example, Major Bradley donated the items to a museum in Martin, and the museum de-accessioned them when it closed in 1988, at which time they were purchased by Ormie Brimmer...then how have they been "in our family's private collection for over 60 years"?? cefil
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Post by biggordie on Dec 28, 2008 9:42:23 GMT -6
Great work, cefil.
Gordie
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 29, 2008 15:15:33 GMT -6
I echo Gordie, cefil, and admit to having originally posted the inquiry about the museum. It is, indeed, the eBay auction items that prompted my interest, having acquired a few of what appeared to be items of documented provenance.
However, further inquiry is proving disappointing, and as of last week the same seller was offering a knife, complete with notarized COA, described as having been found beneath the body of Custer after the battle. It is not there today, but whether sold or withdrawn I do not know. There are, however, a bullet, arrowhead, suspender adjustment buckle, and bone-handled knife (eating utensil) currently offered for sale by the same individual.
As the son of an honest man, artifact collector, historical non-fiction author, attorney, and emptor who did not sufficiently caveat, I have a rather low tolerance threshhold for this sort of thing, and intend to take appropriate steps as soon as I have satisfied myself that doing so is fully justified. Should any purchaser of similar items desire to learn more, you may contact me at makers@txcityattorney.com.
Conversely, I hope to soon post a message that, ho ho, joke was on me and that all claims, Bradley to Black Pipe, book to Brimmer, were not only alliterative, but genuine. MA
"Words speak louder than thoughts; actions louder than words; bumper stickers loudest of all."
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Post by bc on Dec 29, 2008 17:34:56 GMT -6
Keep up the good work Montea. I already filed a fraud complaint with ebay and the seller for an owner friend of the alleged guidon being sold on ebay for 500,000 bucks. The red over white swallowtail with a 7 in the middle and the name Libby embroidered in the corner complete with bullet and arrow holes and blood stains and provenance that said it may have been at the battle. Unfortunately, the seller did not list my fraud alert question on the sale listing but he did respond to me and say it would pass the information on to the owner. I told him them it might be a movie prop. Ebay did not respond. The item was not removed by ebay but it did not sell. I probably shouldn't care with such an exorbitant price cause anyone with that kinda bucks to spend who would do it based upon that description in the listing is probably getting what he deserves.
I worry more about those things priced to where a novice collector may be duped. Even I might bid a few hundred bucks for Custer's knife. I'd keep it with my collection of horse droppings from Custer's horse found at various sites.
Another caveat emptor is the notarized COA. The notary (assuming that also isn't forged) just authenticates that the signor of the document is who he says he is (assuming the notary check some ID). The notary cannot vouch for the accuracy of the writings in the document even if the signor swears on an oath it is true.
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Post by biggordie on Dec 29, 2008 17:58:44 GMT -6
You mean to say that some would lie under oath? UNDER OATH?!?!?!?
Does this mean that the mummified upper lip, complete with mustache, did not really belong to Jimmi Calhoun? I should have known when the mustache spun a cocoon and emerged several days later as a butterfly, and the upper lip turned out to be a lower lip upside down.
Gordie
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Post by bc on Dec 29, 2008 19:27:20 GMT -6
Well Gordie, all the notary, like a court reporter, can do is ask the person to raise their right and then ask them if what is in the document is true (anyway for a sworn declaration as opposed to a basic acknowledgement that they are the same person as the name on the document).
Around here, you can go down to the grocery store where they have one of the grocery checkers registered as a notary. Cost is a buck or two.
That upper lip may be the same one being sold as belonging to Jimmi Hoffa. The COA said he used a jackhammer to get it so it has to be true.
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 29, 2008 20:07:34 GMT -6
Hey Gordie, do you still have that butterfly? Apparently I might be interested in buying it.
Appreciate the good words, bc, but I intend to do more than complain to eBay. Approximately a dozen items from this "collection" have sold, and in most states there are deceptive trade practices acts that award treble damages and attorneys fees. In this case, considering how thrilled I was to find what I thought was reliable pedigree--publication of photos of the items in a book and lineage of owners back to the battlefield--it was the highlight of my Christmas season.
Now, while I would love to learn that the pedigree can be proven (the seller has a time limit demand letter in hand), I am a Whoa Man scorned, practicing a new motto a little more to the point than a similar one massacred (that's an LBH pun) by still president W, i.e. "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me; fool me again . . . PIPE BOMB!" (figuratively, of course . . . also litigiously).
By the way, Gordie, Mr. Swanson very graciously commented on the 28th birthday gauntlets inquiry, as well as the foregoing. Nice man. MA
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 29, 2008 20:18:01 GMT -6
Yes, extremely nice and very talented.
What did Glen say about the gauntlets?
Diane
P.S. to cefil: I haven't been paying attention lately. What does "(OAP)" after your mentions of South Dakota mean?
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montea
Junior Member
Posts: 87
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Post by montea on Dec 29, 2008 21:08:40 GMT -6
Deleting one reference he might not want repeated, that:
"All of this material that you describe seems a little suspicious to me. Custer would have had his 28th Birthday about 1868. He had his court martial the year earlier and was recalled for the Washita affair. If my math is right he and Libbie would be in Monroe during the period in question. There seems to have been a lot of this type material showing up in the last several years, the most notorious being ____________. A lot of money was spent on very dubious material. Beaded gloves seemed to have shown up in the 1880's when the wild west shows became popular. The artifacts are certainly a buyer beware situation. I looked them up on E-bay and I again find it hard to believe that a knife was found under the body of Custer and if it were to have it show up on E-bay at this late date. My advice would be to be cautious and to buy things because they are what they are supposed to be and not what you would like them to be.I hope I've helped a bit. If you can get a photo of the gloves I would be happy to look at them for you." MA
"Gardeners in the desert can just as well plan jungles as cactus."
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 29, 2008 21:36:49 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing that. Glen knows his stuff.
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Post by BrokenSword on Dec 30, 2008 14:49:52 GMT -6
Diane,
Forgive my cutting-in, but:
OAP = Of All Places
Not to be confused with:
OAP(B) = Of All People, or
OATN = Of All The Nerve
BS
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Post by cefil on Dec 30, 2008 17:26:31 GMT -6
You need never ask forgiveness for cutting in, oh wise one...he who is known far and wide as Mr. B(utt-in)S(ki). B(e)S(ides), as the originator of "of all places" you, OAP(B), should certainly feel free to interpret it for others. For those who may be even remotely interested (an admittedly small group, to be sure), here's a bit more of the background: Some time ago, BS told a story and then remarked, in seeming surprise, that it happened in South Dakota, of all places. In my thinskinnedness, I took umbrage at this remark, perceiving it as a slight to my new home. BS assured me it was not thus intended, and during the ensuing discussion "of all places" morphed into a positive catch phrase for the joy and wonder to be found here in SD. (BS even suggested I should encourage the Broad of Tourism to adopt it as an official slogan. I did, but she wasn't interested.) So, I've adopted it as my personal paean to this fascinating and wonderful place that I'm lucky enough to call home -- South Dakota, of all places! cefil
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