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Post by Scout on Sept 18, 2005 16:37:45 GMT -6
SOACM,
Yea, agreed, Vic was killed in battle, several eyewitnesses to the aftermath place him there.....one account says he was killed down hill from last stand hill and the General probably had to run some distance uphill to LSH. He was never reported MIA.....Fascinating stuff.
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Post by truthsearcher on Aug 21, 2006 14:05:43 GMT -6
About a year ago Diane was kind enough to post for me concerning my pair of candlesticks. Pictures of these are on the website. I apologize for not following through on this after her postings but we had emergency illness in my family plus selling our home and moving to another. Quite a bit has happened this last year and quite honestly, this was the last of my priorities. I am now ready to start my research again. I greatly appreciate your help in the past with your ideas and suggestions. My hope is that you are as curious about these as I am. There are so many possibilities. I have now taken them to 2 Metal Specialists. One in St Louis and another in Hannibal. I have also shown these to our Missouri Historical Society. There is no doubt that the silver plate and sterling silver used , as well as the brads and the design, are of that era. I could take these apart as I have been told there was usually something placed inside. I have not done so as I have been told the brads are original and have never been touched. I have not cleaned these in any way either and without a good silver polish it is hard, even for the specialist, to find any markings on the outside of the silver. The date could be of English design, however, all English silver was hallmarked. Could these be hallmarked on the inside? Were they made in the US or Europe? The candlestick itself, the plaque and roman numerals are sterling, the hoof encasement is silverplate. I became aware of these and consequentially purchased them because a friend knew I collect Victorian Dog and Horse items. I have for the last 32 years. These candlesticks were originally sold at Brightwells Auction House in Herefordshire UK June of 2005. I have a hard copy of their online auction posting results. Catalogues/Ae030805/Lot 472. I have been in contact with the auction house, through email and phone, and they will not release the name of the consigner/vendor because of their privacy laws, however, they did give me some clues as to the previous owner . (Aution House reply at the end of my post) (I do have a complete listing of items that were sold along with these candlesticks in that auction if anyone from the UK might "guess" who this person might be.) When I first saw a picture of these online, before I purchased them, I knew the date immediately. I showed that picture to my husband, my father and several neighbors. No one knew the significance of the date. Nor did my friend who initially told me about them or the auction house that sold them. The only reason that date had stuck in my mind is because I am ΒΌ Choctaw and had read several books pertaining to Native Americans within the last several years. By point being, that I doubt very many Americans remember that date from school and we certainly can't expect people from the UK in general to remember that date. And I was aware of the significance of VII. Needless to say I purchased the candlesticks and waited patiently for them to arrive from England. I was not aware of the pattern of the simulated designed nail holes on the bottom of the shoes until a General who currently rides with the 7th was kind enough to email me specs from the Department of Army. I immediately took them to a prominent Antique Gallery in St Louis, the Art Museum, the Missouri Historical Society and a Metal specialist because I wanted to rule out the possibility of a recently manufactured fake. I feel that I have accomplished at least that much. Because I am not a historian and I did not even begin to know where to start researching, I then contacted Diane. Obviously, if I could figure out who owned these at the time of the Herefordshire auction sale, I could find a large part of the puzzle. Please keep in mind, because the auction house that sold these did not know the significance of the date and apparently did not research them, they are liable to the family they sold these for. Victorian Equestrian Taxidermy items were very common in Europe. I honestly believe they thought this was just another hoof taxidermy, possibly a race horse of that era. But obviously, that date is very important to our US history and my goal is to find out IF these candlesticks are important to our US history. Thank you for allowing me this very long post. And thank you for any ideas or suggestions you might have to help me with my research. I'll be happy to answer any of your questions as well.
<<October 25, 2005 Dear XXXXXXXX, My apologies for the delay in replying to you but I have been trying to get in contact with the vendor. Unfortunately I do not have much information for you. The item belonged to the vendors father in law who lived and worked in the London area, he was a collector\ dealer working for, and buying from Bonhams and Phillips auction houses. On his death many items passed to his family, a number of which they have sold through our auction rooms. They have no knowledge of where these candlesticks came from except that he probably bought them when he was in London although he was also much travelled around Europe Good luck with your research, Yours sincerely XXXXXXXXX
Brightwells Auctioneers>>
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Post by Tricia on Aug 21, 2006 18:42:36 GMT -6
Truthsearcher--
Having indulged in these kind of fact-seeking missions before on this board, let me give you a rough draft edition of what other conversations regarding Custer-related collectables have included. This is, by no means, an expert opinion about your candlesticks, but rather just an overview. From what you have written, these relics are of the proper time period. Good!
First off, it is up to you to prove these candlesticks are made of Vic's--or any other horse involved in LBH--hooves and for the "expert" to throw as much water on the fire as possible. This healthy skepticism is a rather unfortunate process and not aimed personally at any single member or collector. That said, here is what I see:
1) Why the Roman numerals on the hooves? On most things I have seen, the "Seventh" in Seventh cavalry has always been depicted (unis, hats) as an arabian number, i.e., "7."
2) Why is there no specific event attached to the engraved date? Should there not be a mention of "in memory of, " or something similar? If this is truly an artifact of Custeriana, why doesn't it come out and say it? Why is it leaving so much to our collective imaginations? And if this is meant to be a presentation piece, where is the name of the person to whom it was presented?
3) And like others in this thread, I was under the belief that IF Vic survived, he was captured by a member of the Indian village. And if killed in battle and these hooves were collected in 1877, how did someone recognise Vic, when all other existing bones had been picked clean?
This is just a quick summation of what sort of questions have been asked of other members with possible Custer/LBH artifacts. Frankly, I hope you've got the real thing!
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 22, 2006 6:19:34 GMT -6
Just a wild thought: Brightwell's may not be able to give you the name of the consigner ... but if any of the other items put into the auction by the same vendor have since been sold on again, is it possible that one of them might include the previous owner's name in the provenance?
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Post by truthsearcher on Aug 22, 2006 10:34:05 GMT -6
Thank you Leyton. Any and all healthy skepticism is welcome. It generates more ideas and I have learned to take it. <G> I do wish the initial heading on the Post had not mentioned Custer. I think for many the idea is so preposterous that it shuts down the mind on another other ideas and possibilities. We are assuming whoever had these made was directly associated with the 7th. That may not be the case. All those who have seen these in person, agree that they were very costly at the time to have made. Who would have thought enough of these hooves and had the money to spend to have them made? However, having said that, the West Point Crest, established in 1802, Duty, Honor, Country, MDCCII uses roman numerals. (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Union_Army_Corp) As did the Corps at the time and the Service Corps Zoologist traveled with Custer at some point and taught him Taxidermy. Might this Corps Zoologist also have taught others associated with Custer? Most tombstones around the time of the Civil War and after had roman numerals. For the sake of argument, if not the registered Thoroughbred, Vic, what other horse might have been important? I just don't want people to get so caught up in the idea that these have to be Custer's horse that we don't explore all other possibilities. I would love to have photographs of any horse at LBH because these hooves have very individualized markings on them. Another possibility that I have researched is the Cody/Wild West Show in Europe. Cody and many others, in addition to several Indians had connections in Europe. But then I go back to the fact that these are not hallmarked as English silver would most definitely be. At least they are not hallmarked on the outside of the hoof. What soldier might have gone back to Europe and have had them made in another country besides England? The metal specialists feel though that they were made in the US. English and Italian Victorian silver probably would have been more elaborately decorated. The simple design style suggests US made. One specialist suggested that whoever owned these lovingly cared for them for many years because of the polishing that was done to them. In his words, excessive polishing. In fact, both agreed it was the polishing that was one of the factors that helped date them to that time frame. Obviously the most important factor I think is what family owned them all these years. The answer to that is the name of the family who originally consigned them to Brightwells auctions. There is some suggestion that this family was a prominent Wales family. I'm still searching for this family name and who might have died early in 2005 that fits the description of the man mentioned in Brightwells email to me. I'm hoping that anyone on this board in Europe might have some ideas. The second most important factor is that I could rule out Vic through US Jockey Club Produce Records. Vic was a registered Thoroughbred and descendants from his line can be traced to present day. Very tedious work but I am working on that now. And again, photographs of horses at LBH is very important. I don't have a clue where to search any photographs that might be in existence.
< Thank you Elisabeth, very good idea! I can look at the other items at that auction and then try to find online if any of them have sold again. England is very good about posting many of their auction results online. I don't know which items from that auction belonged to the same family though. But this is well worth checking into. Unfortunately that auction result is outdated online, but I do have my 4 page printed hard copy that I could scan and email to anyone in the UK that might have any ideas. I'm going on the assumption that several items from this family were in that particular auction. Thank you! >
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 22, 2006 10:51:41 GMT -6
Well, I'm in the UK, so I could have a look if you like ...?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 22, 2006 10:58:02 GMT -6
"Yea Nay creeping Jesus....." (Blake)
When Dandy died, what happened to his corpse? Look what happened to Alistaire Cooke's.
How many people puttered across the field and just took the hooves of a horse for a keepsake, being apparently a nation of ghouls and merchants to profit off of ghouls? Many could have. But doesn't this have the whiff of trying too hard? Roman numerals weren't used beneath Corps in the Army, were they? Certainly not for regiments. This doesn't issue from a military person, I don't think, although it may have been a gift to one.
This is the sort of ghastly monstrosity second only to a scrimshawed human skull of a participant as a spittoon (extra point through the eye socket) that, say, a Mrs. Kanipe might have thought looked wondrous in their parlor and had made as a gift to hubby. On reflection, apologies to Mrs. Kanipe.....
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Post by Tricia on Aug 22, 2006 15:10:47 GMT -6
Truthsearcher: Here is a photo, taken from Glenwood Swanson's GA Custer: His Life And Times, pg. 66. From left to right, Dandy, Private John Burkman, Vic (Victory). Hope this helps.
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Post by Jas. Watson on Aug 24, 2006 14:03:30 GMT -6
Do I see another 'Custer's Watch' in the making? All we have here really is a coincidence in date, and that is not that much of an unusual coincidence. One is bound to be able to hook a historical happening somewhere in the world to most any date (and remember these originated in England). As for the VII vs. 7; that to me is a minus not a plus. Come on, you KNOW that if these things were what we'd like them to be, there would be things about them that leave no doubt as to what they were--one would not need the slightest bit of imagination to know (of course, outright fakes would do the same). My guess is an antique English racing trophy.
Jas~ (Ye olde killjoy museum professional)
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Post by Diane Merkel on Aug 26, 2006 22:52:47 GMT -6
My guess is an antique English racing trophy. Gosh, wouldn't that be a hoot? What if they are from a horse who won the seventh race somewhere on June 25, 1876?
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Post by elisabeth on Aug 27, 2006 7:17:16 GMT -6
One way of eliminating (or not) that possibility might be for Truthsearcher to send the pictures to the National Horseracing Museum in Newmarket. They undertake to do research -- though they do make a charge for it. Here's the link: tinyurl.com/fp2p8You never know, someone there might recognise the things at once. The labelling makes them pretty unusual, I'd have thought. Most things of the kind -- candlesticks, inkwells, paperweights -- don't seem to have labels, presumably because they're from a favourite animal who'd be remembered by the owner anyway without prompting.
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Post by elisabeth on Sept 2, 2006 4:41:24 GMT -6
Re the Roman numerals: hadn't noticed before, but they crop up in Custer in 76, p. 227 -- Herendeen's memories. He's talking about the reburial expedition in 1877. "When Custer was buried, there were stakes marked VI and VII for Custer and Tom Custer, and but for me they would have made a mistake and got other remains than Custer's."
It's not entirely clear whether Herendeen put this down in writing, or whether Camp's noted down what he said in an interview, so it's not conclusive ... but at least it's a possible hint that Roman numerals might be used in a 7th Cavalry context?
Now, what do we know about Tom's horse ...?!
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Post by Melani on Sept 2, 2006 18:19:58 GMT -6
I would think that in '77 they might have been carrying any number of tools with them--axes, saws, whatever. As for ever knowing for sure if they are Vic's hooves, I can only quote Mike Sheridan--"It's all right as long as people think so." I can't imagine how they could tell Vic's bones from another horse's a year later.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Sept 5, 2017 23:04:00 GMT -6
A query from a magazine writer brought this thread to my attention. It was fun to read it again, so I thought I'd add this comment in order to resurrect it. I don't recall who all of the people were, but I miss Leyton/Tricia, Elisabeth, Scout (Mike Nunnally), and Dark Cloud!
Diane
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