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Post by clw on Apr 8, 2012 11:22:00 GMT -6
To my way of thinking, Custer reached that crossing and there is archaeological evidence pointing to that fact. It is inconclusive because the "evidence" was located only part of the way between the Battle Ridge extension and the ford, but logic points to a movement in that direction. I need to learn more about the archeology. How close to the river was this found? But if Boyer was at the fore approaching the ford, wouldn't he have fallen first? And Kellogg bringing up the rear (which makes perfect sense) would have fallen after Boyer on the retreat? Yes there's not much justification for Boyer being at SSL without E Co. Unless he was sent back from Ford D as a messenger. Because his talents might have been considered an advantage in choosing a messenger, and because Custer had offered his scouts the chance to disengage early on; he may have said something to the effect of 'Mitch get your butt out of here and on the way find me some GD help.' A stretch, but a possibility. Me either. We have Voss to consider too. I found some notes that reminded me Camp recorded two different statements - from H Co. guys I believe - that Voss was found near Kellogg. I think the body of the Chief Trumpeter has to figure heavily here when considering any action at Ford D.
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Post by zekesgirl on Apr 9, 2012 18:20:46 GMT -6
Just another inticement to get you up there this June, I am planning to go down to Kellogg's marker. Found out all we need to do is contact the rangers first. We get orange vests and away we go.
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Post by fred on Apr 10, 2012 8:09:08 GMT -6
I need to learn more about the archeology. How close to the river was this found? CLW, I do not believe the authors gave a specific distance... in fact, I am sure of it. Based on what and where they said they found, however, I figure about 1 1/2 miles from Calhoun Hill. The distance Custer traveled from the hill to Ford D is 2.33 miles, and the artifacts were found about 1 1/2 miles from his start. That is just beyond the bend off the ridge extension. Absolutely, but that is not what the descriptions claim. It was after the ford foray, south of "D," as they moved toward Cemetery Ridge... right? I do not see that, CLW. I see no reason for another messenger, especially Boyer. I believe Custer backtracked from "D" to the ridge, pausing there as he did, so he could be seen by Benteen and Keogh as they would depart Calhoun Hill and move along the Battle ridgeline. They would see Custer there, knowing he had found a river crossing, then re-uniting to attack across "D." Voss... Hardorff, Lakota Recollections, 148-149. In a footnote—page 149, #7—Hardorff wrote, “The summit of Custer Hill was found to be a nearly level site in 1876, some six feet higher than the adjacent ridge. The laying of the monument’s foundation, the digging of burial trenches, and the installation of a fence in the 1880s resulted in the leveling of the elevation, which was measured to be some 30 feet in diameter.” Hardorff goes on to say that 10 bodies were buried there, initially: GAC, TWC, Cooke, Smith, Voss, Vickory, and privates Parker and Driscoll, plus two unidentified men. McVeigh, D., TMP-- A-- CTMP Voss lay between LT Cooke and PVT McCarthy (L). Voss was less than 12 feet from Cooke. Camp interviews, Camp on Custer, 92. McVeigh, D., TMP-- A-- [Frank] Hughes (L) “lay right near E Co. men, down at the gully.” Camp interviews, Camp on Custer, 92. DeVoto, A., PVT-- B-- "When we buried Custer’s men we found his chief bugler’s [Voss] body about a mile away from Custer’s battlefield, all alone and stark naked. His body was in a kneeling position and his back was stuck full of arrows." DeVoto narrative; Hardorff, Indian Views of the Custer Fight, 203 - 209. DeVoto was incorrect here, misidentifying the body. Voss was found near Custer; DeVoto was obviously referring to TMP Dose.Lynch, D., PVT-- F-- Lynch said Groesbeck-Vickory, Voss, and Donovan lay near Custer. Camp interviews, Oct1908 and 8Feb1909; Custer in '76, 139. There was no Donovan in the Seventh Cavalry. PVT Glenn claimed Voss was found nearest to the LBH.Siefert, A., PVT-- K-- CTMP Voss was found near Custer. Camp interviews, Camp on Custer, 73. O'Neill, T., PVT-- G-- Vickory lay right near Custer, his face up, and CTP Voss lay, face down, across Vickory’s head. Camp notes, 13Oct1912; On The LBH With Walter Camp, 186. O'Neill, T., PVT-- G-- “Some of the bodies were lying on top of other bodies; one case in particular, the body of the Chief Trumpeter [Voss] was lying over the face of a very dear friend of mine, named Jack Vickory. All the bodies were naked…” Pacific Monthly, July 1908; Custer Battle Casualties, II, 81. Glenn, G., PVT-- H-- Glenn said on 27Jun76, Benteen went up Crazy Horse gully and the body closest to the river was CTMP Voss, then Kellogg. Both were within a stone’s throw of the LBH. Camp intervew, 22Jan1914; Custer in '76, 136. Mathey, E., LT-- Buried Mark Kellogg’s body on 29Jun76. The last one buried. Camp interview, 19Oct1910; Custer in '76, 79. Mathey, E., LT-- Mathey said Kellogg’s body “lay near a ravine and between Custer and the river.” It had been overlooked. Camp interview, 19Oct1910; Custer in '76, 79. Ryan, J., 1SG-- M-- All the men had been stripped except Mark Kellogg and he was identified, partly by the boots he wore. Memoirs, 1880s, 1904-1906; Ten Years With Custer, 302. Ryan, J., 1SG-- M-- Mark Kellogg had on his clothing and his boots and was not scalped. Undated Camp notes; On The LBH With Walter Camp, 182. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 10, 2012 9:57:12 GMT -6
Hi Fred how are you, I hope your Easter weekend went well.
I was reading a few posts over yonder and I seen one concerning the breakout from LSH, and someone mentioned about men from E Coy still fighting for their lives when this breakout accrued, now I can’t find any evidence of this mini last stand by E Coy (some say it was deep ravine some say it was in a gully), the remains of 28 men from E Coy were found this area, but if they went down fighting in this gully (if this gully was not deep ravine) then wouldn’t there markers be in groups similar to the ones found on the Keogh sector. I know I have been through this topic with you before, but I have never come across this notion of E Coy men still holding out when the break out took place.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Apr 10, 2012 18:28:08 GMT -6
Ian,
Thank you, and I hope you had a marvelous Easter as well.
I do not know what they are saying next door; I seldom look. It is just a waste of time with their stupidity; and it isn’t just the Dynamic Duo.
The consensus of those who buried the bodies was that there were some 28 men found in Deep Ravine. Deep Ravine is—and was—a fairly deep gully with steep walls, higher than a man and it cannot be mistaken for anything but what it is: a very deep ravine. The only other “ravine” in that area is a more shallow depression we call Cemetery Ravine, between Cemetery Ridge and the South Skirmish Line. And almost all 28 men found in Deep Ravine were believed to be from E Company (there were a couple of exceptions). Almost all the F Company men were identified on LSH, though without names—or certainly more names than we know of—I do not know how either of these mass identifications/conclusions were arrived at.
If this is the case, however—and I have no reason to question it—it is obvious the E Company move was planned. This move would have been the so-called “breakout.” According to the Indian sources most of the men involved in this move were afoot. That being the case, we should suspect all the horses were either dead or had been run off. That also jibes with Indian accounts. Considering the terrain, the distance, the heat of day, the smoke and dust in the air, heavy boots, and woolen pants, men on foot would have petered out fairly quickly. Only those very few men on horseback could have maintained any impetus in the move, and as soon as the Indians recognized hesitation, they would have swarmed all over the exhausted soldiers. At this time in the battle, Indians would have been all over the SSL as well as Cemetery Ridge—which is higher than the SSL—and they could have charged down into the troops, forcing them into Deep Ravine. There is no other way soldiers would have gotten there; they had to know Indians were in the ravine.
Most of the bodies were found on LSH, and only 12 or fewer were found between the hill and Deep Ravine. Those 7 to 12 were probably killed along the way and some of those had to be E Company men as well. If Boyer were killed where his facial bones were discovered, then he was one of the 7 to 12. For my two farthings, no other scenario works.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by shan on Apr 11, 2012 8:41:35 GMT -6
Fred,
There seems to be two distinct camps now with regards as to how E company ended up in Deep ravine, { I think we can safely forget Michnos theory about Cemetery ravine.}
Some think that E troop were sent down from Cemetery, either to disrupt and dislodge warriors using the ravine, and or, to establish a skirmish line just to the North of it.
Others, myself included, still cleave to the old notion that they were sent: probably as a last desperate measure when the battle was all but lost, to distract the Indians, and hopefully gain some cover in the vegetation around the river where they might hold out for a while, thereby giving some relief to those still on LSH. It seems to me that the Indian testimony is particularly strong with regards to this part of the battle, with many witnessing the movement and the eventually demise of the men making it.
Now without pouring through my books, do any of them give any landscape descriptions, or name any of the areas we are all familiar with that would definitely tie the movement from one place or another. I seem to remember White Bull witnessing the movement from Deep ravine itself, but with your own exhaustive research, could you stand up and swear in court that it was definitely either Cemetery, or LSH?
Shan
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Post by bc on Apr 11, 2012 11:56:36 GMT -6
Fred, There seems to be two distinct camps now with regards as to how E company ended up in Deep ravine, { I think we can safely forget Michnos theory about Cemetery ravine.} Some think that E troop were sent down from Cemetery, either to disrupt and dislodge warriors using the ravine, and or, to establish a skirmish line just to the North of it. Others, myself included, still cleave to the old notion that they were sent: probably as a last desperate measure when the battle was all but lost, to distract the Indians, and hopefully gain some cover in the vegetation around the river where they might hold out for a while, thereby giving some relief to those still on LSH. It seems to me that the Indian testimony is particularly strong with regards to this part of the battle, with many witnessing the movement and the eventually demise of the men making it. Now without pouring through my books, do any of them give any landscape descriptions, or name any of the areas we are all familiar with that would definitely tie the movement from one place or another. I seem to remember White Bull witnessing the movement from Deep ravine itself, but with your own exhaustive research, could you stand up and swear in court that it was definitely either Cemetery, or LSH? Shan Shan, first I wouldn't discount Cemetery Ridge till they find the bodies, one place or another. Second, why one or the other for E company's movement? They are inclusive if you ask me. Before you have to go to the river, you have to clear the ravine. Gall and his masses were in the process of or had taken Calhoun Hill. Keogh would be coming to LSH. They didn't have the ammo for a sustained defense. Cemetery Ridge and points around was held by NAs after driving Custer to LSH. The back door to this whole mess that also had some cover was Deep Ravine. In the end, motives for a particular movement can only be theorized after you have a timeline in place for the movements. bc
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Post by fred on Apr 11, 2012 14:10:40 GMT -6
Some think that E troop were sent down from Cemetery, either to disrupt and dislodge warriors using the ravine, and or, to establish a skirmish line just to the North of it. This theory makes no sense and probably found its first adherent in Charles Kuhlman... or else he started it. The problem with a skirmish line on SSL is that for it to work it must hold the high ground and/or have its rear protected. Once Cemetery is lost it is foolhardy to attempt to establish a line along the SSL. You would also not accomplish anything along Deep Ravine because its side were too steep for it to be useful except as an infiltration route with a single egress. And I believe-- as do Richard Fox and Greg Michno-- that troops were sent in the basin area near that egress to try to stem the tide of Indians coming out of the ravine. That makes sense to me. The fact it did not work is attributable to a couple of things: (1) the pervasive, too many Indians, and its corollary, (2) not enough F Company troops. Well, you are correct. It is hard to swear it because there were no names, but from the description of events by various Indian sources and by the accounts we have of where bodies were located, we can make some very good guesses, guesses that hold up quite nicely. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Apr 11, 2012 15:07:46 GMT -6
... I wouldn't discount Cemetery Ridge till they find the bodies, one place or another. There were six markers on Cemetery Ridge, all relocated after they desecrated the area with the visitors center. There was no way the ravine could be cleared. The move off LSH was sheer and utter desperation... there was nothing else they could do... except die on the ridgeline. Clearing a way, buffaloing the Indians, lots of noise and bravado... nothing else. Nice to see you saying that, and you are probably very close to the truth. Once you make all the computations and work that stuff in with the accounts; then work separately with the other end of the battlefield; then try to assemble those two together... you would be amazed at the results. You would also be amazed at how little you have to ignore or throw out. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by bc on Apr 11, 2012 19:58:53 GMT -6
... I wouldn't discount Cemetery Ridge till they find the bodies, one place or another. There were six markers on Cemetery Ridge, all relocated after they desecrated the area with the visitors center. There was no way the ravine could be cleared. The move off LSH was sheer and utter desperation... there was nothing else they could do... except die on the ridgeline. Clearing a way, buffaloing the Indians, lots of noise and bravado... nothing else. Nice to see you saying that, and you are probably very close to the truth. Once you make all the computations and work that stuff in with the accounts; then work separately with the other end of the battlefield; then try to assemble those two together... you would be amazed at the results. You would also be amazed at how little you have to ignore or throw out. Best wishes, Fred. Guess I meant to say Cemetery Ravine. However if I had the money to do some archeological work, I'd start with Deep Ravine first. We've been batting this stuff around for a few years now and everyone takes a different approach. Some try to pick Custer's mind and apply that to the evidence and NA accounts. Some try to just look at the evidence. Some look to the NA accounts. Some try the combination of them. No matter what, it still boils down to apply some logic and then seeing if that is consistent with a timeline. Since I don't have the time to put one together, I'll wait for your book. No one has really put one together since Gray. It will be much, much easier to pick a timeline apart than put one together. I can see a number of reasons for Co. E being there and Mitch Bouyer as well. We can't forget the Bill Boyes theory that Co. E did cross at ford D, moved south into the camp a little ways before moving back across the river around Deep Ravine ford with Bouyer along as a guide. And since a number of Co. C men were found on the other side of Deep Ravine along the SSL, Co. E could have been sent either in concert with or to support Co. C who was being overrun. Finally they got their as a last ditch run for it from LSH but I would think such a last ditch run would include troopers from Co. F as well and probably no officers. Benteen's and others involved in the burial refer to the 28 in/at the ravine as being from Co. E so I conclude they were their as part of an organized unit. When the bodies are found, we will know. bc
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Post by clw on Apr 11, 2012 20:30:43 GMT -6
Isn't there some archeological speculation that the bodies in Deep Ravine might still be below the point to which it was excavated? Evidently there was some back filing and trash dumping that caused the build up of debris by the natural drainage burying them deeper. Or is that just wishful thinking?
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Post by Dark Cloud on Apr 11, 2012 20:42:51 GMT -6
Unless they were buried VERY deep the first time, which does not conform to accounts or the geologic possibility of an old, steep sided gully with long established bed, they're gone within a year or so. They'd be uncovered by the rain, near the river, and the birds, coyotes and all would have taken care of everything. But there would be some detritus left, I'd think, but nobody seems to have noted any in 77 or later. I'd bet they threw garbage int there to discourage inquiry.
Suspect whatever was found was buried up on the SSL that Camp noted early on was a dubious contention. Even there, it was unlikely to survive as a corpse for long. Some did, we're told. But even Custer's had been taken for a walk, given what we buried at WP. Skull and some vertebrae as I recall.
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Post by biginjunfight on Jan 25, 2013 2:36:15 GMT -6
Can anyone be sure that those men went there or were left there during the battle?Those there dying first instead of as everyone says, last?
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Post by noggy on Dec 31, 2017 16:11:20 GMT -6
... I wouldn't discount Cemetery Ridge till they find the bodies, one place or another. There were six markers on Cemetery Ridge, all relocated after they desecrated the area with the visitors center. Fred I know you don`t frequent the board as much these days, but if you could point me in the direction of where to find out/read more about the six markers I would be indebted to you (I have Participants and recall these six are mentioned there but not here on my holiday vacation so can`t remember if the are references to this in your book). I`m at a point where I throw myself after anything regarding Ford D and therefor alsoCemetery Ridge. Happy New Year, by the way! Geir Of course, if anyone else know anything about the markers, as literature or such, please yell out!
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Post by fred on Dec 31, 2017 20:01:47 GMT -6
Geir (noggy),
The six markers were not found on the ridge known as the South Skirmish Line; they were found on Cemetery Ridge. They were removed when the National Cemetery and the visitors center and parking lot were built.
I first read about them in the Richard Fox book on archaeology and I discuss them in some detail in my Strategy book. Chances are all six were E Company (Gray Horse Troop) men killed either when the ridge was overrun or when Custer and Smith moved up the ridge toward Last Stand Hill. Nothing else makes sense as all the HQ personnel were accounted for and F Company had been sent into the basin area. I do not have the data in front of me, so my memory may be a little faulty, but with those in Deep Ravine, Smith on Last Stand Hill, and these six on Cemetery Ridge, that would mean there were two other E Company men remaining... and they were, in all likelihood, two of the nine men found on the South Skirmish Line.
Wishing you a very Happy New Year, Fred.
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