Ryan
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Posts: 49
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Post by Ryan on Dec 17, 2008 20:05:50 GMT -6
This is one of the many enigmas concerning the battle of the Little Bighorn. Those many noble markers, stretching from the basin below Custer Hill to the edge of Deep Ravine. What happened here? Were these men that attempted to flee, redeploy, or charge from Custer Hill? Or was there a fierce defense waged here? Depending on what author you consult, you receive a different answer it seems - and that irritates me, frankly!
Theories, anyone?
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Post by biggordie on Dec 17, 2008 22:10:32 GMT -6
commanche:
As you say, there are almost as many theories as there are writers, researchers, students or, probably, visitors to the NM. On the Associates forum, there is a thread entitled "How did they get this far" or maybe it's "that far?"
Nobody seems to think that they were already there and did not come from Custer Hill for some reason, be it flight, deployment, charge, or whatever. As far as I am concerned, none of those are correct.
The first thing one must do is, as much as possible, put the markers in proper perspective on the entire field and especially the South Skirmish Line, and to answer the question about 28 bodies supposedly in Deep Ravine. Once that is done, the scene becomes a more understandable one, and when the overall NDN evidence is used as a basis for "theorizing" the answer might still irritate you, but will make sense.
There is ample evidence from accounts mentioned that Custer did in fact approach the area of the northern fords; that he was repulsed there and retired back the way he had come - toward Custer Hill; that he detached E Company to his then right to attempt to protect his flank from warriors crossing above and coming up Deep Ravine; that E Company fired volleys into the Cheyenne camps across the river and at the warriors mentioned, and that they fought retreating UP the slope still functioning as a flank guard, shedding casualties along the way, until only a few remained to make it up to Custer Hill, where Custer and the remnants of F Company, some from C Company and a few from other companies who somehow made it back to that hill from Keogh Swale.
Whatever one chooses to call it, that is what happened, and there is ample evidence for that scenario, which is why I no longer hold it as a theory but as a certainty.
Of course, everyone has his own theory, as you have stated and as I have also noted, and, as far as I am concerned, and have often written, each is entitled to hold to it without any argument from me, which probably wouldn't change anyone's mind anyway.
But, as Judith Collins sang "Since you asked"...................................
Not really an enigma, after all.
Regards,
Gordie
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Post by shan on Dec 18, 2008 6:23:55 GMT -6
Hi Gordie,
Well, you old rogue, you beat me to it, mind you I thought it was time some one came in and tried to drag the conversation away from all that stuff about this kind of drill and that kind of drill, and, god help us, arrow dodging horses who were shorter than their riders, not to mention various rather suspicious looking photos of men and women who should be the subject of communal drooling on some other kind of board altogether.
Now then, having got that off my chest, I know you refuse to debate battle theory, and whilst I accept, and understand that, I am nevertheless, going to argue with you as if you were that silent whisper in my ear that keeps trying to knock me off course.
Firstly, you’ll be surprised to hear that after all my attempts to argue against the move to ford D, I have rather reluctantly come round to accepting that there may well have been a movement in that general direction, and that yes, E company could have been left behind somewhere in the vicinity of either Cemetery ridge, or the Stone House region in order to try and fend off ever increasing numbers of hostiles, whilst Custer and the rest moved on, possibly with the idea of regrouping with Keoghs wing.
These things no longer interfere with my model of the battle, but one thing I am sure about, is that the move that has been suggested, the one made by E troop from Cemetery towards Deep Ravine, one conducted in a state of panic because their horses had been run off, is one of the more unlikely scenarios surrounding this part of the fight. Whilst I’ll accept that E company may well have had to fight their way back up towards LSH as J.S.I.T. hints, and that at some time within this time frame their horse were run off, where we differ is that I happen to think that shortly after they managed to rejoin those clustering around the famous LSH, they were then dispatched down towards the river: note the river, not necessarily Deep Ravine, for reasons unknown.
Many Indian accounts talk of two groups coming off the hill towards the end of the battle: and by that I take them to mean LSH and not Cemetery ridge, one group comprising some 40 men, 4 or 5 of whom may have been mounted, whilst the second group who fled the hill when there was no other alternative, was said to number between 7 and 15.
If one stops to think about it, one of the more obvious reasons why someone: note that I do not necessarily name Custer, who was still trying to retain some element of control over events, felt it best to have one company leave the LSH environment, is the obvious one that it was just far too congested up there with men and horses, not to mention the dead and wounded. From an Indian point of view,presented with the prospect of so many men packed into such a small area, offering such a lip-smacking set of targets for even the poorest shot, this was a veritable cattle shoot. In which case I think it should come as no surprise that someone who was still exercising some degree of control, thought it better to reduce the number of potential targets.
But as well as the oral evidence we have from Indian eye witnesses, evidence which most people who are interested in the subject will be aware of, much less well known are a number of paintings, several of which show the men running down from LSH and ending up in a Deep Ravine. Standing Bear who was commissioned to paint 3 big paintings that were much bigger than those Indians usually made , painted the most famous of these. In many ways they are all fairly similar, showing what were to the Indians key moments in the battle, the running off of the greys, the soldiers running for the ravine, the attempted flight of 4 mounted men back towards Reno: men who are incidentally, all riding grey or white horses, and of course Yellow Nose taking the flag
He also made a couple of smaller works concerning the battle, one of which is interesting in that it shows a man of rather Indian appearance, he has long hair for instance, who is wearing what we over here call a waistcoat, but you I believe call a vest, leading this run for the ravine. In other words without naming him, Mitch Bouyers appearance and dress style was noted by Standing Bear and others,: it should be remembered that as the artist worked there would have been a continual round of men looking over his shoulder, many of whom had taken part in the battle, all of whom would have been very quick to put him right should he get something wrong, and he is duly shown leading the way as they moved down off the hill. Interestingly, there is no figure in the painting that one could identify as Custer, so he failed to resister.
shan
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Post by conz on Dec 18, 2008 8:11:38 GMT -6
I agree with the above two models, which are very similar, and add to them another event in mine...
That the reason much of E Co ended up in the deep gully of Deep Ravine (north branch), is that Custer ordered it from its cemetery fighting position, once F Co had a solid perimeter on the hill, to attack and cut its way through to Keogh still fighting off the east side of Battle Ridge. It only got as far as the gully, which, along with Native fire, caused the unit to dismount and take cover. Some died on SSR, and some died after diving into the gully.
I think there was a second episode, led by MB, to break out for the timber near the end, which didn't get far either.
Clair
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 18, 2008 12:11:29 GMT -6
Where were all the officers' bodies found? If indicative of their death positions, how does that in any way support these heroic, detailed, aswarm with military terms for unlikely penultimate events? They do not.
You shouldn't allow yourselves to ignore attested fact that's inconvenient. The highest rankers were found not within a defensive position but at the perimeter on the top of a hill. It suggests they were leading a movement north when shot off their mounts as they became visible to those under cover on the other side.
The supposed mass of evidence for the Great Norther Journey could be (not 'is') explained by the Indians playing soldier after they lost interest in the battle, also attested to by both sides plus Terry's men over two days. Since that is known to have happened, you have to eliminate that contamination of their shed evidence, and the admitted fact some Indians were fooled when they rode so dressed into the camp.
If they were driven back from the river up north, there'd be corpses. That's the reasoning you use to deny a crossing at MTCF, right?
Just saying.
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Post by conz on Dec 18, 2008 15:21:59 GMT -6
It's a good question about where officer's bodies were found:
C Co commander was never found (Harrington). Some think he went into village, and others thought he was killed trying to escape near the end. So this doesn't tell us one way or the other.
L Co commander was found with his men, presumably making a movement north toward Custer. This could be an ordered move, or in a rout...it is indicative of one or the other, without prejudice.
I Co commander was found right where his men were...a definite stand in the swale, and probable movement as a formation toward Custer...same proviso as with L Co.
F Co commander was found in the middle of his companies perimeter. This definitely points to a cohesive stand.
E Co commander was found with the HQ, and not with his company, although his men are found in a different location all together. This is indicative of either his early wounding, so was with the doctor (my model), or he detached from his company and went back up the hill while most of his men died on SSR or its adjacent gully (possible, but less likely).
Does that cover everything?
Clair
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 19, 2008 10:36:40 GMT -6
Custer, his brother, the surgeon, Cooke, Smith, and Reilly were found at the top of the hill where the marker is. There were a few soldiers about them to the north and east, but they were not in the center of a defensive arrangement. Most of the men were west and south rather on the rim where they would be if that were the case. Nobody knows why they were there, but being shot off their faster, better mounts upon summitting the hill first is as good or better a logical assumption than others.
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Post by conz on Dec 19, 2008 12:26:21 GMT -6
Custer, his brother, the surgeon, Cooke, Smith, and Reilly were found at the top of the hill where the marker is. There were a few soldiers about them to the north and east, but they were not in the center of a defensive arrangement. Most of the men were west and south rather on the rim where they would be if that were the case. Nobody knows why they were there, but being shot off their faster, better mounts upon summitting the hill first is as good or better a logical assumption than others. Perhaps, but such a model doesn't seem to jive with most witness statements that said there was a "perimeter" of horses around Custer's position from which the men fought a last stand for quite a while. This is from both Warrior statements and officer statements upon finding the men and horse bodies. Not much evidence for many men dying mounted, looks to me...very few men were mounted when they were killed, by Warrior testimony. The relatively small areas where men were found also indicates clusters of dismounted men, too, and not mounted losses...had this unit been mounted for most of their close combats, the bodies would be spread for tens of miles all around...certainly not clustered on a couple hilltops and between, I think. Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 19, 2008 13:40:56 GMT -6
Let's not forget that the Indians robbed the bodies of all personal belongings and clothing. Who's to say that the soldiers' bodies ended up not in their original position when they died and/or were wounded.
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Post by biggordie on Dec 19, 2008 13:44:32 GMT -6
Clair:
You should change that "most witness statements" to "some witness statements." Most of te accounts do not say anything about a perimeter of horses. A few say that there were a few horses which seemed to have been shot in place and used as breastworks, but not "most" - and even fewer say anything about a "perimeter."
This is where historical research and intuition part company.
Since a man knocked or shot off his horse looks, in death, pretty much like a man killed defending a static position, it is hard to say which is who, especially two days after the fact, and more especially when nobody was looking to determine the causes of the deaths [except in a few cases].
The classic "circle of horses" was, according to most of the accounts which actually mention any such thing, confined to the very top ot the knob on Custer Hill, which contained six horses and ten bodies. So they say.
Gordie
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Post by BrokenSword on Dec 19, 2008 18:41:40 GMT -6
There are stories of some bodies being dragged around the battlefield with a rope, by mounted warriors.
M
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Post by biggordie on Dec 19, 2008 19:37:53 GMT -6
You can take another ten bodies off the battlefield, and throw them in the river or whatever, and it will not alter the image of a chaotic fight, and anyone who wants to characterize two dead bodies three hundred yards apart as evidence of a formed defense of any type, can be my guest.
"Johnson, quick - get Chambers and go and cover that mile between here and the river!!" "Right, Sarge! Which hill should I go on? The pointy one, or the other one?" "You take the pointy one, and tell Chambers to take the rounded one. I'll send Finckel to cover Backus Ridge. That'll give us about a square mile each, so we should be able to hold them off until help arrives."
From ARTIE KOSTAR OF FUNKY TOWN, by permission.
Gordie
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Post by BrokenSword on Dec 19, 2008 19:49:46 GMT -6
Six blind men and an elephant.
M
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Post by biggordie on Dec 19, 2008 20:10:41 GMT -6
perzackly.
Gordie
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Post by bc on Dec 19, 2008 21:10:12 GMT -6
There are stories of some bodies being dragged around the battlefield with a rope, by mounted warriors. M Isn't that how Frank Finckle got away? Played possum till they drug him a couple miles away while holding arrows under his arms and the tail of an arrow stuck in one side of his hat with the arrowhead coming out the other side of his hat.
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