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Post by biggordie on Aug 27, 2008 8:26:18 GMT -6
shan and elisabeth
I rather doubt that there would have been confusion between a "block" of forty gray horses, and half that number. Even if the latter had in fact been allocated to one company, which is doubtful, they would have been parceled out to whoever had the most broken down mounts, not to one or another platoon - so that there probably would not have been a bunch together.
That being said, however, the distribution of some or all of the band horses throughout CEFIL most certainly would account for those NDN sources which claim that the gray horses were mixed up with the rest during the final stages of the Custer fight [there are some of those accounts - not many, but some].
FWIW
Gordie
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Post by rjsamp on Oct 12, 2008 17:50:12 GMT -6
Where's the doubt on the distribution of the band horses? It's written down in contemporary 7th Cavalry accounts. Traditionally grays were issued to trumpeters (buglers) and bandsmen (hence the term band horse) if you are looking for some other distribution pattern. 21 of the 7th's 25 authorized trumpeters were at the LBH...and 11 were killed (including Henry L Dose, Company A, who was Custer's Duty Orderly for the day).
Why grays mixed in with other horses in the later stages? because they were mixed in with the survivors of the other companies.....specifically C and F. 6 sorrels from C company were killed as breastworks on top of LSH.....where the parking area/motorway is today. These weren't officer's horses that were fresh and survived the Calhoun Hill/Keogh sector fights by being the first to flee......and doesn't indicate that an officer group fled to LSH and ran into a stone wall of fire that dropped them in their tracks. The Indians stated that a bugler with stripes on his sleeves was very brave.....sounded until the end.....and died near Custer. That would have been Henry Voss, Chief Bugler of the 7th Cavalry.
Don't ever forget that some 90 7th Cavalry horses survived the fight....and may have contributed to shod horse prints at Ford B that Reno noted.
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Post by conz on Oct 12, 2008 20:06:48 GMT -6
rj,
I think the question is:
1) were the entire band mounted on grey horses, and
2) when the band's horses were taken and divided amongst the other 7th companies, were they given to more than just officers, senior NCO's, and/or trumpeters?
The postulation being that since these were extra grey horses, and needed to be distributed amongst the companies, they probably were not limited to certain positions as per tradition.
Me, I have not seen any evidence as to how they were distributed and to whom...
Clair
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Post by rjsamp on Nov 3, 2008 6:05:01 GMT -6
On my map, I've marked Voss (trumpeter) as being found there too, but don't remember why at the moment. You mean Henry Dose (trumpeter and duty orderly for the day for Custer)....Henry Voss (Chief Bugler) was found up on LSH near Custer.
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Post by rjsamp on Nov 3, 2008 6:12:37 GMT -6
rj, I think the question is: 1) were the entire band mounted on grey horses, and 2) when the band's horses were taken and divided amongst the other 7th companies, were they given to more than just officers, senior NCO's, and/or trumpeters? The postulation being that since these were extra grey horses, and needed to be distributed amongst the companies, they probably were not limited to certain positions as per tradition. Me, I have not seen any evidence as to how they were distributed and to whom... Clair traditionally grays/whites/band horses were given to band members AND the trumpeters....25 trumpeters, 16 band members. In the case of the 7th E Company was on band horses.....no way the Indians are confused about that. They could pick out a lame horse out of a herd of x,ooo... I don't know what color horses the band had.....nor how they were distributed..... but no confusion on the NA's part. we're talking 16 (at most) grays distributed to possibly 600+ troopers? and non used for the 2nd Cavalry who also may have needed remounts? Drop in the bucketas far as analyzing rivers of troopers.
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Post by biggordie on Nov 3, 2008 9:45:33 GMT -6
rjsamp:
Exactly. BTW, Voss was also put near the river where Kellogg was found [Mechlin, Glenn], and Dose at the top of MTC with three other bodies,and on the flat near the mouth of same. Only a couple of many men who were reportedly found in very different locations. Along with the horse colors, one of the difficulties one confronts if trying to reconstruct anything from the location of specific bodies or the presence of specific horses.
Gordie
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Post by princesstori on Aug 12, 2009 17:37:44 GMT -6
wow. *confusion sets in...*
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Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 12, 2009 21:12:52 GMT -6
Tori
Looking forward to your dad's book and the answers.
Steve
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Post by tonypag7 on Aug 24, 2009 13:02:10 GMT -6
For what it's worth here is a take on what could have occurred. I believe that Custer road down MTC until taking his command out onto Luce Ridge. I do not think that he sent Yates to the ford (B) to take presure off Reno ( Custer never knew Reno was in the danger he was). Instead, Custer sent Yates to the ford to check it for a possible crossing and for enemy strength, and to hold the ford for a crossing--as any competent officer would do before attacking any ford--While he, Custer, waited for Benteen's arrival ( Custer would not have sent for Benteen to hurry and then leave the area he was waiting in). While waiting, Custer then looked back toward Weir Hill and instead of seeing Benteen coming, he saw warriors. That is the first time Custer realized that something was amiss. From his vanatage point (high on the bluffs) Custer could see both the ford and over the trees lining the ford into the village. He now sees hundreds of warriors charging to the ford ( from the pony heards and the valley) and realizes that Yates is in danger. He recalls Yates with two volleys, as Yates could not see for himself the warriors comming to the ford. They reunite on Calhoun Hill. Now I believe that Custer, while still hoping for Benteen to arrive, sees warriors streaming out of deep ravine and knows that if he does not proceed to Custer Hill (high point on his flank) his entirte flank would be rolled up. So he orders Calhoun to hold his position, still hoping for Benteen, and takes E and F and rides to Custer Hill to protect hias flank. The rest is history--Benteen never arrives and Crazy Horse encircles Custer's command and roles up his left flank (Calhoun and Keogh) and then destroys Custer. Any Comments
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Post by George Mabry on Aug 25, 2009 7:58:20 GMT -6
Tony,
I agree with you that Yates was not sent to MTC ford to take pressure off Reno. The question as to whether or not Custer knew Reno had been whipped is a little more difficult to settle. Guess it depends on how you time everything. I like the thought that Custer did know Reno had been repulsed because that would explain why no attempt was made to support Reno in the valley but the timing issues leave some doubt.
I also think you are on track with the reasoning behind Custer moving north of Calhoun Hill. I too think it was in response to a growing Indian presence in that area and that it had nothing to do with non-combatants fleeing northward or a need to locate another ford.
I don’t like the idea that Custer was waiting for Benteen since his last known order to Benteen did not order Benteen to join Custer’s five companies. I see the order as telling Benteen to join the fray but not necessarily to group with Custer. However, based on what we know, or think we know, of Custer actions north of MTC, it does appear that Custer was waiting for something or someone. If it’s a “someone” then that could only be Benteen.
George
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Post by tonypag7 on Aug 25, 2009 10:28:21 GMT -6
George---the reason I say that Custer did not know Reno retreated was because DeRudio testified that he saw Custer on the high ridge just prior to Reno retreating into the timber. We have no reason to doubt this, except that he may have seen the scouts instead--but lets take DeRudio at his word. Custer then leaves prior to Reno retreating into the timber--so the only info Custer has at that point is that Reno is in skirmishing instead of charging. Custer now sends Martin back after reaching MTC. Now, Martin says that he saw Custer retreat from ford "B" when he, Martin, reaches the high ground. Again, we have no reason to disbelieve Martin. If he saw Custer retreat ( which was really Yates retereating from the ford), then Custer was engaged eairler than thought. When Martin reaches Weir Hill, he sees Reno in skirmish--which could mean in skirmish in the timber. He then meets Boston, who could have only seen Reno in the timber---and that is what he told Custer (who already knew that). Point in fact--nobody ever saw Reno retreat from the timber--and Custer never knew that! As for Custer waiting for Benteen--I believe he did because the order tells Benteen to "come quick" To me that means come as quick as you can to your commanding officer. Custer would not then have left the area after he sends for Benteen to come. That would make no sense, to order someone to come quick and then leave the area so he could not find you! Now as for Custer either going to Custer Hill to protect his flank, that could be exactly what he did after seeing warriors pour out of Deep Ravine. However, I have another theory: During the Civil War (Custer Victorious) Custer used two fords to defeat the Rebs ( I forget which battle now as I do not have the book in front of me), but he sent a few companies to one ford and drew the Rebs there, while he took the rest of the command and crossed at a ford down river, unmolested, and attacked the Rebs from the rear. The interesting thing here is that the Lt. he did this manuver with was non other than Yates himself. Now, was Custer trying to accomplish this same tactic again--with the same Lt. who knew this tactic from the past? Here is some interesting facts: I read where it asserted that Custer was seen moving down toward ford "D". I also read where a warrior woman clamed to have shot the leading officer off his horse at a ford and into the river. His officers then surronded him, picked him up and retreated from the ford. Could this have been ford "D" and not ford "B" that every one thought?. Also, there was suppose to be an unexplained twenty minute delay near ford "D". The only delay there would have been to treat your commanding officer if severly wounded while on your way back to the high ground (Custer Hill) and the rest of your command (as they were attempting to do). If so, then the south skirmish line may have been put there to protect that halt and not from attempted escape like everyone thinks. So, maybe he did not go to Custer Hill to protect his flank--just some food for thought
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 25, 2009 12:13:27 GMT -6
<Again, we have no reason to disbelieve Martin> Poor Martini . . . his stories changed over the years so that it would be difficult to fully believe most of what he said in later years. Maybe at the COI his testimony could be accounted for . . . the many interviews decades later . . . As for "the note" . . . it is crytic at best with not much info other than for Benteen to return from his scout. At no time did Benteen know about Indians running/sighted/village. At no time did Benteen know about the Reno/Custer separation. At no time did Benteen know about an attack order. From Kanipe & Martini's accounts the village was ripe for the taking. If Custer stood around waiting for Benteen then he made a huge mistake by not immediately hitting the village. The note's vague "orders" left Benteen with the leeway to do as he saw fit . . . sorta like Terry's orders to Custer.
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Post by BrokenSword on Aug 25, 2009 12:35:55 GMT -6
crzhrs - "...Poor Martini . . . his stories changed over the years so that it would be difficult to fully believe most of what he said in later years...."
Gee, maybe his English improved, and he could make himself better understood as time went on. If he'd just admitted to losing the first page of the 'note' from Custer.
BS
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Post by crzhrs on Aug 25, 2009 12:53:12 GMT -6
I'm not sure just exactly when Martini gave other interviews/accounts after 1879. Camp interviewed him in 1908 . . . almost 30 years later. Granted his English may have improved, but did his memory?
PS: Martini was struck and killed by a large truck while crossing a road . . . not to be funny . . . but if he couldn't see a large truck coming at him what did he miss at the LBH?
I think the following happened when Custer ordered Martini to get Benteen:
"You want I go between? That makes no sense."
"Not between, you idiot--Benteen."
"Oh, Benteen...sorry Mr. Custer, he no here."
"I know he's not here. I sent him on a scout."
"Well, if you send him out on scout, why you think he here?"
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Post by bc on Aug 25, 2009 13:40:29 GMT -6
I'm not sure just exactly when Martini gave other interviews/accounts after 1879. Camp interviewed him in 1908 . . . almost 30 years later. Granted his English may have improved, but did his memory? PS: Martini was struck and killed by a large truck while crossing a road . . . not to be funny . . . but if he couldn't see a large truck coming at him what did he miss at the LBH? I think the following happened when Custer ordered Martini to get Benteen: "You want I go between? That makes no sense." "Not between, you idiot--Benteen." "Oh, Benteen...sorry Mr. Custer, he no here." "I know he's not here. I sent him on a scout." "Well, if you send him out on scout, why you think he here?" And that truck was a beer truck. (The double O from the Coors logo on the hood ornament probably struck him head on right where he reading glasses were sitting. The same way Brokensword and Billy will meet their demise while standing there waiting on the next beer truck delivery. )
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