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Post by bc on Sept 24, 2008 8:23:55 GMT -6
I tend to have the battle lasting a lot longer than most, including Conz. This length includes the NAs moving around the battlefield on foot to get into position, creeping up through the coulees, etc.(plenty of time for reinforcements to arrive) Much of the movement probably was on foot. Remember how long it takes to walk from LSH just down to deep ravine? Its a long walk from Calhoun Hill to LSH also. This is part of the reason why I think people have too much time compressed around the time from when Reno dismounted on the valley floor, then to the timber, then to Reno Hill, then on Reno Hill, the movement to Weir Point, and then watching the end of the battle from WP.
I suppose the final assualt on LSH itself did only last a half hour or about the time it takes an NA to eat his lunch and probably was mounted as well as some dismounted NAs. But the entire firefight lasted much longer.
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Post by conz on Sept 24, 2008 9:18:35 GMT -6
I agree with that general model. To define how long all that took is a real exercise with lots of give, but it is fun nonetheless. <g>
Clair
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Post by wild on Sept 24, 2008 10:16:17 GMT -6
Conz The one crime that Custer was not going to be accused of is that he went down without a fight.Uncle Sam and the entire country would not countenance their golden boy going down without at least selling his life dearly.The honor of the army demanded it. The Indians cannot be allowed a massed mounted charge against Custer's spread out troops because if that was allowed to occur we have to accept that it was beaten back.An impossibility.Thus we must dismount the Indians and have them crawling around on all fours for an hour or two. Two cavalry forces facing each other ,one dismounts an spreads out,what's the counter to this Conz?To charge home of course.
All the Indian accounts you posted in support of your position passed through a white filter first.
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Post by bc on Sept 24, 2008 10:57:59 GMT -6
I suspect it was Custer who dismounted first to form skirmish lines depending upon which area we are talking about but then there were probably a number dismounts and mounts by various units as they moved around the Custer field. Any charges by the troops would have been to force the NAs back and not as charges that would continue on through to victory except possibly E troop who may also have been charging to just get away.
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Post by conz on Sept 24, 2008 11:10:16 GMT -6
Conz The one crime that Custer was not going to be accused of is that he went down without a fight.Uncle Sam and the entire country would not countenance their golden boy going down without at least selling his life dearly.The honor of the army demanded it. The Indians cannot be allowed a massed mounted charge against Custer's spread out troops because if that was allowed to occur we have to accept that it was beaten back.An impossibility.Thus we must dismount the Indians and have them crawling around on all fours for an hour or two. Two cavalry forces facing each other ,one dismounts an spreads out,what's the counter to this Conz?To charge home of course. All the Indian accounts you posted in support of your position passed through a white filter first. That's pretty "black helicopter" territory, Wild...careful... Clair
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Post by conz on Sept 24, 2008 11:11:59 GMT -6
I suspect it was Custer who dismounted first to form skirmish lines depending upon which area we are talking about but then there were probably a number dismounts and mounts by various units as they moved around the Custer field. Any charges by the troops would have been to force the NAs back and not as charges that would continue on through to victory except possibly E troop who may also have been charging to just get away. That is my model, as well. I currently have E Co making a charge from its cemetery position south along the western slope of battle ridge to cut through to Keogh. It dropped into the deep gully. Clair
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Post by wild on Sept 25, 2008 12:18:25 GMT -6
There is no significant break in the line of markers to indicate that any of the troops had been detached.A relatively straight line can be drawn through the positions where the officers fell also indicating that the command was in line when attacked. That line was desperately weak with no more than a handful of troopers per 100 yards.There is no sense of strenght along the entire formation.There is a point a tipping point in a battle when one side realises all is lost.That came immediately on Battle ridge at the sight of hundreds of charging Indians.Some good men might try to stand and face the onrushing hordes but others will not thus further increasing the feeling of isolation and complete collaspe.That line as indicated by the markers was never fought but suffered instantatious paralysis. There was no battle no last stand it was butchery and as near to murder as made no difference. The country's honour required a heroic fight and the vanquished Indians were never going to shame their conquerers with admission of muderious slaughter.Thus the myth----
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 25, 2008 16:46:53 GMT -6
You love to stir the pot don't you Wild.
AZ Ranger
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Post by conz on Sept 26, 2008 7:55:40 GMT -6
There is no significant break in the line of markers to indicate that any of the troops had been detached.A relatively straight line can be drawn through the positions where the officers fell also indicating that the command was in line when attacked. Only a few men will be found where the fighting positions were...most would be found in a line of retreat from those positions once they are broken (or their line of attack out of those positions if they were trying to break out to somewhere). That's the logic of tactical combat. It may look like a line of retreat to some, but that doesn't mean that it was. The positions where they obviously fought from look pretty standard, to me. Such skirmish lines could hold Natives off indefinitely, as long as their ammo held out. Only if the Warriors got around behind such lines could they cause the Soldiers to retreat and be killed at close range. This has never happened to my knowledge in U.S.Army history before, so no reason to think that LBH is "special." Men don't just run because they see thousands of enemy, if they know running is senseless. These are professional Regular Army Soldiers. They won't run unless forced to....they won't "panic." They'll stand and fight under the orders of their Sergeants and officers. No reason to think that the 7th Cavalry was any different from the rest of the Regular Army in that regard. These men were hard-bitten professionals, determined to kill Warriors. That model is laughable. Only a sick mind would believe such...don't do it. If this happened, there is no reason to have any U.S. Army at all...better just to surrender to any enemy of the United States that just says "boo!" Oh...it is Halloween coming up...<g> Myth that Regular Army Soldiers are brave and will fight to the death under their officers? That is the rule, not the exception. Why you think the 7th Cav that day was any different is what baffles me. I think you should adjust your attitude and opinion of the quality of the Regular Army, my friend. They have never been perfect, but they don't suffer "instant paralysis" facing imminent death, either. They make their enemies pay dearly, even when they know they will die. American Soldiers ARE heroes, in the vast majority of cases. Clair
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Post by conz on Sept 26, 2008 7:58:11 GMT -6
You love to stir the pot don't you Wild. AZ Ranger LOL...and I always appreciate the chance to use my soapbox to support the legacy of our fighting men and women... Clair
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tatanka
Full Member
Live for today like there was no tomorrow
Posts: 125
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Post by tatanka on Sept 26, 2008 8:36:29 GMT -6
I agree. The Indian accounts all say that most of the soldiers fought bravely.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 26, 2008 9:59:50 GMT -6
The Indian accounts do NOT all say that most of the soldiers fought bravely. Most are silent on that issue, and a few note suicides, and the ones chatting up buffalo hunt aspects aren't implying they were brave buffalo while running away. At the end, they ran for cover/escape, some on horseback ran, who knows for what.
There's a difference between actual respect and admiration for the dead and throwing your saddle over them to out praise all others and make yourself their spokesman for your advantage, to be praised as the greatest praiser. To the point, it distorts history if all these supposedly elite, motivated, highly trained soldiers, heroes all, got wallopped so badly and so quickly. It delays admissions of bad tactics and other errors and defects of training that need to be fixed, not replicated, the next time.
It's not even hero worship, but a device to fix attention on the obsequious praiser, who rarely deserves mention in the same paragraph, much less breath.
They probably did as best they could, under the circumstances, given their training and lack of alternatives. It's hardly a slam to say that.
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Post by conz on Sept 26, 2008 11:32:47 GMT -6
They probably did as best they could, under the circumstances, given their training and lack of alternatives. It's hardly a slam to say that. It IS a "slam" if you say that "the best they could" was that they suffered "instant paralysis" at the sight of thousands of enemies. Clair
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Post by crzhrs on Sept 26, 2008 11:41:47 GMT -6
We have to look at the position the Indians were in once on reservations. They came to understand it was better to tell the White Man what he wanted to hear rather than the truth.
They couldn't bite the hand that fed them!
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 26, 2008 13:22:19 GMT -6
Who has said they entered instant paralysis at the sight of thousands of enemies? Not I, but I'd not find that surprising if they were momentarily struck motionless.
But of course, I'm not a soldier and am an admitted coward. Inexplicably unutilized heroes like conz can damn those who faced what he never did or fabricate out of need a scenario with no basis in hopes he might be assumed to be like them and venerated.
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