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Post by conz on Oct 30, 2008 11:12:54 GMT -6
So the reduction of the five companies had nothing to do with arrow fire. Exactly. I don't think any but F Company was ever "reduced." That implies attrition warfare, not shock combat. The rest went down by close combat, is my interpretation of evidence. So except for F Co and the HQ, neither arrows nor rifles had anything to do with the outcome at LBH. Same applies to Reno's fights. Clair
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Post by conz on Oct 30, 2008 11:15:19 GMT -6
The Warrior dilemma is how to get close to this tight knot in mass? They can't just run through the fire...they don't do that. They would take dozens, if not hundreds, of casualties. So first they fill that knot of men with arrows. THEN they rush it, when the fire slackens.That would be a major increase in volume of fire and accuracy not demonstrated anywhere else in order to have hundreds of casualties don't you think? AZ Ranger IF the Warriors ever tried to actually touch a cavalry skirmish line in mass they would take hundreds of casualties doing it. That's why they never tried...not in any case in any NA Wars action that I can find. Clair
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 6:42:46 GMT -6
Some more evidence of Warrior "arching fire" out of Robert Kershaw's LBH book, Red Sabbath...I believe Kershaw is a British Army officer and military historian:
"The majority of disoriented cavalry soldiers, not knowing what to do and unable to hear shouted commands from pitifully few officers and NCOs, uncertainly stood their ground. Standing in the open they were cut down with increasing frequency by the intense gunfire. Those belatedly realising the need for cover found it denied by arrows arching overhead seeking out their positions."
"Gunfire was not the only threat. Flights of arrows, black against a clear blue sky, hissed overhead and rained down on horses and troopers alike, eliciting groans and squeals of pain. Others streaked by on a flat trajectory with greater frequency than pistol shots."
Description of the Fetterman fight:
"Shots rang out, but only about a quarter of the Indians had firearms and these varied enormously in type and quality. Swams of arrows arched through the air, hissing into the blue-coated ranks, who were thrown into immediate turmoil...Blue great-coated figures porcupine with arrows began to tumble out of their saddles."
"Despite wearing thick clothes and greatcoats, many were swiftly impaled by numerous metal-tipped arrowheads that struck home from 60 to 80 yards away propelled by an 80-pound pull load. They sipped into their ranks from teh vertical and horizontal plane, sticking heads and necks and arms and hands raised in protection or supplication. The Indians carried far more bows than firearms, and these could be fired with greater frequency and accuracy than the pistol over short ranges. It is claimed by some Indian accounts that as many as 40,000 arrows were fired during this battle, raining down on the column at the rate of 1,000 per minute."
Wagon Box fight:
"Blankets were spread over the tops of the boxes to obscure firing positions and lessen the impact of high-trajectory arrows."
"Another soldier was cut down by the high-angle fire and two more were severely wounded."
Clair
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Post by wild on Oct 31, 2008 8:25:19 GMT -6
You must understnd that your first two examples are not descriptions by witnesses but by imaginative authors.As for the waggon box fight all arrow fire over 100 yards will be arching to some degree or another
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 31, 2008 9:02:37 GMT -6
I believe that to be description of direct method using a bow and arrow at long distances. How is that different than the rainbow trajectory needed to hit the village by Reno's troops from 800 yards with a carbine?
What is source for the 80 pound pull? That should peak sherpa's curiosity.
What is the Indian word for 40,000?
AZ Ranger
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Post by bc on Oct 31, 2008 9:04:51 GMT -6
Question I have is: Does an arrow "hiss" when it travels overhead other than movie sound effects heard in a thousand movies? The same movies that has exagerated the sound of gunfire to the point people don't realize it when they do hear real gunfire which can sound more like popping firecrackers and not like Dirty Harry's big bad 44. Guess I've never been around the target area of an arrow. When firing arrows, I don't recall any noise other than the snapping of the bow and the sound of the arrow hitting the target and when I missed I don't recall any noise when hitting the ground.
Been around artillery and mortar fire and know the sounds but I don't know if they used language such as differentiating between incoming and outgoing arrow fire.
By the way, I think my .22 cal pistol is louder than my .45 cal. pistol.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 31, 2008 9:53:24 GMT -6
Separation of fiction from fact has never been apparent with conz.
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Post by clansman on Oct 31, 2008 9:54:30 GMT -6
I don't know anything about arrow fire but I suppose it's possible that hundreds of arrows fired at the same time would make some kind of noise travelling thru the air.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Oct 31, 2008 10:09:13 GMT -6
Isn't archery practiced anymore? You can hear arrows "whish" at summer camps everywhere, and being manufactured to science, probably are quieter than the knife carved Indians versions.
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 11:24:05 GMT -6
You must understnd that your first two examples are not descriptions by witnesses but by imaginative authors.As for the waggon box fight all arrow fire over 100 yards will be arching to some degree or another So you don't believe that Warriors would shoot their bows in a higher trajectory than necessary for the range in order to deliberately have the arrows come down more vertically? Clair
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 11:33:01 GMT -6
Separation of fiction from fact has never been apparent with conz. That is because your definition of "fiction" is synonymous with "faith" or "intuition." As far as I'm concerned, ALL life is fiction. What YOU call "non-fiction" is merely fiction that you believe is true...if you want to be philosophical about it... You also believe the mirrored fallacy...that if it is fiction, then it is not true. With attitudes like this, I don't believe you can ever get a good understanding of anything, historical or contemporary, is my warning. Clair
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 11:36:51 GMT -6
Isn't archery practiced anymore? You can hear arrows "whish" at summer camps everywhere, and being manufactured to science, probably are quieter than the knife carved Indians versions. Not to mention that arrows are sometimes specifically made to create noise as they travel...either for intimidation or for signaling. Clair
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Post by wild on Oct 31, 2008 14:37:33 GMT -6
So you don't believe that Warriors would shoot their bows in a higher trajectory than necessary for the range in order to deliberately have the arrows come down more vertically? One high trajectory arrow has one slight chance of hitting it's target.One low trajectory arrow has a better chance of hitting a number of targets.With a high shot your direction will be off and you have to judge for distance.Low trajectory your direction will be accurate and the target being 5.7 or 10.7 [including horse]or so will compensate for any inaccuracy in judging distance. You can quote all the fiction you want just don't quote someone else's fiction.
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Post by bc on Oct 31, 2008 14:49:37 GMT -6
I don't remember arrows making much of a sound. I just hope no one starts claiming that the NAs were firing volleys of arrows as a signal to the others. Then it would be time to terminate this thread.
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Post by conz on Oct 31, 2008 15:22:34 GMT -6
Wild,
I don't think you get the tactical concepts here. The reason the Warriors are firing arching fire in many situations, not just at LSH, is because:
1) they can't get close enough for accurate direct fire. But they are close enough for long range fire, beyond the "effective" range of the bow.
and/or
2) the targets are behind cover, so direct fire is ineffective. But indirect fire coming down vertically is effective, if fired at an area by a large group of Warriors.
Clair
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