Love Triangle #1 ... Weir/Libbie/GAC

[Melani]

Wow, great! Can you please enlighten me about Libbie and Josephine?

[Montana Bab]

Elisabeth,

......And while I'm at it.. ....you've painted a different picture of Mr. Keogh, too! But it would explain a little about his meloncholy that last while before LBH. Being Catholic (even if not a good one or not ) would make for some misgivings on his part if he was involved with a married woman. I know they were not saints in those days, but there were some pretty stiff mores to live by just the same.

The more I think about it, it is pretty unbelievable that Custer didn't go balistic! That would fit his personality more than what he did. (What I know of it anyway...)

Isn't this fun ?

B&B (Being Bad)

[elisabeth]

Yes, it does make one wonder about Keogh more than somewhat! On the face of it, he seems to be mischief-making at the very least. But no-one -- not even Custer -- ever cast doubts on Keogh's integrity ... So I think (I hope) it's safe to allow him the benefit of the doubt, and to believe that whatever happened was the result of genuine feeling, genuine attachment, rather than any sort of ruthless moustache-twirling predatoriness.

It is strange, isn't it. Custer's alleged behaviour over the alleged Weir business, where he is said to have gone ballistic, is much more what you'd expect. With the Keogh triangle, it seems to be more like Brief Encounter, or maybe the Rick/Ilsa/Victor relationship in Casablanca: three civilised people, who like each other a lot, all trying to work things out as best they can.

Re Josephine: well, I admit it's by extrapolation rather than anything directly stated; it comes from that same "congratulations for not being seduced" letter. Custer is addressing what he clearly knows to be concerns of Libbie's about "St. Louis", and he equally clearly feels she'll be relieved to hear what Keogh's told Mrs. Hough on the subject -- which is that "God knows" he thinks of the St. Louis lady "only in friendship and pity". Only guessing that this is Josephine, but (1) he speaks of her living in her father's house -- and Dr. McDougall was in St. Louis at the time; (2) "pity" implies she's someone who's suffered a misfortune -- and having your husband murdered and yourself left with two young children to cope with certainly counts as that; (3) Keogh and the Buels had been close at Leavenworth; (4) a day or so after Buel is murdered, Keogh takes a week's leave -- and while I can't (yet) prove it, it's not, I think, a stretch to imagine that this is to escort poor Josephine and the kids to St. Louis. (You'll recall that army wives had no tenure once their husbands died, and were slung out of their quarters with unseemly haste.) That Custer feels the need to pass this quote on to Libbie suggests at least that Libbie had previously expressed uneasiness over Keogh's commitment to her. It's a truly weird situation -- husband assuring wife that wife's lover cares nothing for wife's rival (!!) -- but somehow rather sweet and touching ...

[Tricia]

Elisabeth--

Thanks for the timeline; you've really given some strong indications of GAC's development as a husband as we move from his concerns about Weir to those about Keogh. It got me wondering whether GAC going after Monaseetah was actually a reaction to Libbie's attraction to both Keogh and Weir in sort of an "I'll show you," moment. I would think bedding a captive--and an Indian at that, we of lesser civilisation and supposedly mental capacities--would really be about as low as he could sink, socially-speaking, shocking Libbie back into "reality?"

Certainly GAC was not a saint before them; I'm right with you it all starting in 1866 ...
--t.

[Tricia]

And ...

This certainly adds a different spin on the "Eliza situation." I don't--offhand--remember the year she left the Custers' employ, but when she tells Libbie about her forthcoming departure, "You've got the gin'ril--I ain't got nobody," I wonder if that is a clue to exactly what kind of relationship was happening between she and the Boy General? I know there are several at this board who believe there was an exchange of body fluids between those two characters ... which might have been GAC's ultimate payback to an errant Libbie?

And don't worry about these manly men putting us down; our table on Saturday was filled with a bunch of gossip-laden guys. The guy who played the Grand Duke is a strong believer in a Custer-Miss Spotted Tail liason of the naughtiest kind ...

--t.

[harpskiddie]

Could it be that Custer's alleged not having treated Keogh "strictly in accordance with his rank" prior to the morning of 25 June [according to a reading of Edgerly's comments] might have had something to do with the Triangle?

One might gather more intel from reading the letters, diaries and journals of some of the lesser lights of the regiment, particularly those of the wives, in addition to those of the main players in these human dramas.

Gordie,
he asked "what do you want?" She said "give me a love that wont freeze up inside".............

[Tricia]

Absolutely, Gordie ... I have, in particular, found Kate Fougera's narrative the most help in discovering GAC's character. I'm trying to remember whether Weir had been stationed at Fort Rice just before LBH ...

--t.

[crzhrs]

Maybe Custer's personal feelings toward Keogh & Benteen may explain why both were sent to the rear rather than take part in the "glory" of being in the forefront.

[elisabeth]

Gordie, you could be right about the Edgerly comment. Custer remains friendly with Keogh throughout the crisis of 1870/71 ... but it could be that his attitudes hardened as time goes on. Especially if he had any vague fear that they still had some lingering feelings for each other, which just might have been the case. (Think of the Heart River hunting-party photo, for instance, where the body-language puts Keogh and Libbie together as a couple, with Custer as the outsider. I bet if one showed that to someone who knew nothing about the parties concerned, that's how they'd read it!) And then there were all those weeks in early 1876 when Libbie was at Lincoln and Custer was away. Not much opportunity for the old closeness to revive, with Libbie surrounded by legions of Custer relatives, but GAC may have been concerned none the less ...

Tricia --

Yes, the Eliza thing is most interesting. It was late summer (maybe September) 1869 that she departed. Libbie makes up that touching bit of dialogue for her in the book, but she's probably being disingenuous. At the time, she wrote to a friend: "We had to send her away, as she got on a spree & was insolent". Now, Benteen's version of the Eliza story is that Custer had been sleeping with Eliza right through the CW. If true, presumably Libbie knew nothing of this. Perhaps in the overheated atmosphere of the summer of '69 -- Monahseetah, the "squaws' round-up corral" share-out, the possible Keogh flirtation, etc. etc. -- her "insolence" took the form of springing the revelation upon Libbie?

[elisabeth]

crzhrs --

Maybe. Custody of the packs on the night march certainly has the smack of punishment about it. What's baffling is why his attitude suddenly changes on the 25th, and Keogh's suddenly back in favour again: not only in Custer's own battalion of loyalists, but even given the special indulgence -- as it seems -- of going in with the advance (when he and Cooke go to the ford with Reno). I've wondered if the hardtack-box incident may have been the key turning-point: Keogh, as i/c pack train, risks getting seriously chewed out in order to convey this vital information, and thus proves himself a team player after all. But who knows.

[Tricia]

Ahhh ... I may have figgured out that damn photobucket account! I'm posting a rather telling photo of GAC and Agnes Bates; he is supposed to play her father. I look at his look of more than parental attraction ... revenge at Keogh?

[Tricia]

And the infamous Heart River shot, like above, taken during that summer of 1875 ...



What's the old song, "Torn Between Two Lovers?"
--t.

[rch]

1. I have Clara Kellogg's year of birth as 1842, and that in 1887 she married her agent.

2. There is a small article on Vinnie Ream in the Aug, 2007 issue "American History," p. 74. She didn't marry until after Custer's death. She supposedly had affairs with Gen. Sherman and Franz Liszt. Custer was not mentioned.

3. "WIth Custer's Cavalry" was written by the Gibson's daughter. I think it was based on family stories and perhaps some research that Mrs. Fougera did on her own. She has Lt. Rielly attending her parent's wedding, when he didn't report to the regiment until 1876.

4. I doubt Mrs. Custer had anything to do with Custer's promotions. He was promoted to Brig Gen before they were married. His elevation to division command was based on seniority, and his promotions the Brevet Maj Gen of volunteers and full rank Maj Gen of volunteers was closely associated with Gen Merritt's promotions to those ranks.

5. According to the regimental history, Weir's and Keogh's companies were sent on the boundary survey in 1873 while Sturgis commanded the regiment. They wintered at Ft Totten in 1873-4 and 1874-5. Both companies were assigned to Ft. Lincoln in Apr 1875 while Custer was in command of the regiment. Neither company was assigned to Ft Rice before the LBH.

The Edgerly quote was: ". . . , and I want to say here that during the entire march from Lincoln I didn't hear one word of fault found with any of Custer's actions and he gave Keogh command strictly in accordance with his rank on the morning of the fight." He was not treating Keogh badly at all.

I think this refers to Custer's replacing Keogh as commander of the rear guard with McDougall. If Benteen is correct and the commander of the rear guard was also officer of the day, Keogh would not normally have been releived of that assignment until the end of the day's march at the earliest. Keep in mind that Custer had not intended to fight until the 26th and that then Keogh would have been able to command a battalion in accordance with his rank. If Custer wanted Keogh to command on the 25th, he would have had to do something to make the change.

Eisabeth,

Was Mrs. Buel the widow of David Hillhouse Buel?

If so, it means that McDougall was the brother-in-law of two of Custer's fellow June, 1861 West Point graduates. The other was Lawrence (not Edwin as Nichols has it) Sprague Babbitt. McDougall's father was post surgeon at West Point.

rch

[elisabeth]

rch,

Yes, that's the Buel. Gunned down by a deserter he was trying to arrest at Leavenworth in July 1870. I knew he was in Custer's class at WP, but hadn't realised Babbitt was as well. Thanks!

Re the packs: I'm sure you're right about officer of the day etc. But if Custer was actively seeking to replace Keogh with McDougall, the way he went about it was a bit of a gamble, surely? By introducing the "report in order of readiness" rule, he ran the risk that it would be Keogh (or Yates, or anyone else he wanted with him) that was last to report. And ... I know one can do too much reading between the lines, as many of my posts above probably demonstrate, but the critical point about the Edgerly statement is that he makes it at all: that it's a circumstance he considers worth remarking on. Given particularly that it's in the context of Custer behaving correctly on the march, the inference has to be that Edgerly was pleasantly surprised by Custer giving Keogh due command -- and that he knew his wife was anxious as to how Keogh was being treated, too. I don't think it's fanciful to read this as a clue that there was some sort of difficulty between Keogh and Custer that was known at least to Keogh's immediate friends, and known before the regiment left Ft. Lincoln (since Gracie was aware of it). It may have had nothing whatsoever to do with the earlier Libbie business; Keogh was an opinionated sort, and could easily have annoyed Custer in some other way. But something was amiss between them, or Edgerly would surely never have mentioned it ...

[Diane Merkel]

ricemclean said:

And the infamous Heart River shot, like above, taken during that summer of 1875 ...



What's the old song, "Torn Between Two Lovers?"
--t.

OK -- I'll play the game. The body language is certainly interesting. Libbie is obviously leaning towards GAC. He's leaning into her but has closed himself off with his crossed arms and his attention is distracted elsewhere, seemingly without Libbie's knowledge as she continues to smile for the camera/public.