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Post by alfuso on Feb 13, 2006 0:47:57 GMT -6
bubbabod
I have seen pictures of the WP statue and it was gosh-awful. Custer too old, in wrong tunic, on FOOT, carrying his revolver at such an angle that it appeared he was aiming at himself.
But it was the ONLY statue of him ever at WP and now there is none because Libbie had a snit.
There is no statue of Custer in any majorUS city because of Libbie. Detroit wanted to do one, but didn't consult her and she had a letter writing tantrum again.
alfuso
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Post by Scout on Feb 13, 2006 8:54:31 GMT -6
I think the main point here is human nature, isn't it? When we lose love ones near to us we generally remember them in a good light and forget the bad. It is part of the grieving process I believe, and Libby was no different than us in this regard, only she had a very famous husband. I'm sure she also was encouraged by publishers and friends to write her books, along with the financial needs, she therefore was fulfilling two needs, wasn't she? There was still a great deal of interest in her husband by the general public and who knew him better than her. Plus, I don't think 'tell all' books were yet in vogue. Benteen was unkowningly writing one of the first! James Kelly tried to market his tell all book 'Generals in Bronze' in the early 1900's but no one was interested.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 13, 2006 11:39:40 GMT -6
Re the statue, or absence thereof: sounds as if her main objection was, and very rightly, on aesthetic grounds. But do you think it's possible that one reason her hackles rose so instantly whenever a statue was proposed could have been this: an instinctive fear that once a statue to Custer was put up, a grateful nation would feel it had done its duty by him and could forget about him?
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Post by Melani on Feb 13, 2006 11:56:18 GMT -6
I think the main point here is human nature, isn't it? When we lose love ones near to us we generally remember them in a good light and forget the bad. It is part of the grieving process I believe, and Libby was no different than us in this regard, only she had a very famous husband. I'm sure she also was encouraged by publishers and friends to write her books, along with the financial needs, she therefore was fulfilling two needs, wasn't she? There was still a great deal of interest in her husband by the general public and who knew him better than her. Plus, I don't think 'tell all' books were yet in vogue. Benteen was unkowningly writing one of the first! James Kelly tried to market his tell all book 'Generals in Bronze' in the early 1900's but no one was interested. What scout said. Custer and Libbie were clearly madly in love with each other, and also both strong personalities. Of course this led to all kinds of friction. And as has been observed, flirting was a Victorian art form. Weir was clearly attractive for reasons I don't really understand--I guess you had to be there. Annie Yates depicts him as a raving alcoholic in her diary, though he was clearly courting her and she seemed to like it, but was sensible enough to choose George instead. Weir's heavy drinking would be enough reason for Custer to disapprove. I'm quite sure Libbie was no more fooling around with anybody any more than she was out fighting Indians, but appearances were extremely important in those days, and if she was openly flirting around with the attractive officers, her associates would see that in a bad light. I'm trying to remember where I saw it (Jeffrey Wetz?), but there is one letter where Custer chastises her for corresponding with Keogh and others, saying that even if the letters were innocent, the guys would be likely to drop ambiguous hints about them that would make Libbie look bad. Then he goes and sends her a letter from New York commenting on the ladies' low-cut dresses--I believe the line was "I haven't seen such sights since I was weaned!" Certainly designed to tease her and make her wonder what he was up to--and given the double standard of the time, he might have been up to anything. Like anybody, they had their good and bad points, but they both seem to have had the kind of charisma that attracts people on their good days. Custer made a really bad decision and paid the ultimate price, and Libbie spent the rest of her life missing him. It must have seemed awful quiet around the house.
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Post by Tricia on Feb 13, 2006 12:11:24 GMT -6
Melani--
You make excellent comments about the double standards that were not only present in Victorian society, but also--to a large extent--within the Custer marriage. He could send photographs of pretty girls he'd met, follow young things about New York, and flirt with the nymphs de pave--just for "sport." Libbie gets dressed down for using Weir as an escort to social events at the fort whilst GAC was on the road, yet he can make merry with the ladies!
Regards, Leyton McLean
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Post by Melani on Feb 13, 2006 12:14:39 GMT -6
Excuse me, make the "Jeffry Wert." I have been misspelling the poor man's name with enthusiasm all week.
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Gumby
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Post by Gumby on Feb 16, 2006 12:55:01 GMT -6
Custer was far from perfect, though not as wicked as Benteen would have us believe. That is not to say that some of Benteen's accusations weren't true. Libby was very successful in protecting her husband's reputation during her lifetime. She was not perfect either, yet she garnered the respect of most of those who knew her. General Miles was not at the LBH and his opinion of "the betrayal of Custer" stemmed from his friendship with or admiration for George Custer. Under the surface he was in stiff competition with Custer for A General's star and he would have stabbed Custer in the back politically at any opportunity as he did to others.
The double standards of the day allowed Custer to have his affairs while it would have been scandalous had Libby done the same. She allegedly had her flirtations with a few men but did not step over the line. It is interesting to note that although Weir was one of George's ultimate admirers yet George chose to keep Keogh (who he did not really like much) close and sent Weir off to the other forts in the Dakotas. In regard to Keogh, Libby asked George why he kept him at Fort Lincoln when he wasn't very loyal to George. George responded that he preferred Keogh's presence to the other officers he sent to Forts Rice and Totten. Perhaps Libby's flirtation with Weir caused George's animosity toward Weir. Of course Weir's exile may have served a dual purpose, he could serve as Custer's snitch at the other forts.
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Post by Melani on Feb 16, 2006 22:33:10 GMT -6
Well, Keogh was at Totten a while, too. There is the fact that Keogh was an extremely competent officer--and probably only drank about half as much as Weir!
In Annie Yates' diary (1870), she mentions Keogh as coming to call only once--and the diary is pretty much a roster of callers day to day. Doesn't seem like he was socializing with the Custers much, at least not at that time.
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 17, 2006 1:52:05 GMT -6
Keogh and Weir were in fact "exiled" together. Both left Kentucky with Sturgis, not with Custer and the bulk of the regiment, and went via Fort Snelling to the North-West Boundary Survey escort and then to Totten. Not sure if Weir was brought back to Lincoln before Keogh, but Keogh's troop didn't go there until May 1875.
Bob, I wasn't aware of the Libbie/Custer remarks re Keogh that you mention! Could you tell me where I could find them? There's something vaguely similar in a letter of Custer's to Libbie in 1871, when the 7th had just gone to Kentucky (while Custer remained in New York, having fun): the one where he says he finds Keogh rather absurd, "but would rather have him stationed near us than many others". Didn't know of another, though ...
There's a nice touch in Annie Yates' diary, as I recall, where she says Weir has become almost a teetotaller as "he drinks only wine"!!
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Post by alfuso on Feb 19, 2006 4:07:33 GMT -6
Elisabeth
as I recall reading about Weir, before he was a total sot and when he was sober he was a witty conversationalist, very good with repartee, and spouting poetry, which Libbie appreciated.
alfuso
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 19, 2006 5:29:57 GMT -6
Yes indeed; a college graduate, if I remember correctly? A woman of her genteel upbringing must have been grateful for a break from all the practical jokes and "games of romps" once in a while ...
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Post by markland on Feb 19, 2006 6:28:23 GMT -6
"Keogh and Weir were in fact "exiled" together. Both left Kentucky with Sturgis, not with Custer and the bulk of the regiment, and went via Fort Snelling to the North-West Boundary Survey escort and then to Totten. Not sure if Weir was brought back to Lincoln before Keogh, but Keogh's troop didn't go there until May 1875. "
Off the topic of this thread but the above makes it even more strange that Sturgis did not approve Reno's application for leave after the death of his wife. Keogh, as Elisabeth and others (including Gen. Buford) have made clear, was a competent officer who would have been more than qualified to lead the expedition.
Stranger and stranger.
Best of wishes,
Billy
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Post by elisabeth on Feb 19, 2006 6:49:58 GMT -6
Billy,
Couldn't agree more, if Keogh had been there. But I believe (must check this) that Reno's wife died while Keogh was on leave in Ireland. Keogh had had to fight tooth and nail to get that leave -- he eventually had to go in person to the Adjutant-General in Washington for permission to go -- or he'd have forfeited a massive inheritance left him by his aunt. By the time poor Reno's need for leave surfaced, it would (I suppose) have left only Weir to run the show, and presumably Sturgis knew he wasn't up to it ...
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Gumby
Full Member
Posts: 202
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Post by Gumby on Feb 19, 2006 12:29:45 GMT -6
Elisabeth, Good point. Custer had refused Keogh leave so Keogh went over his head. That never pleases a commanding officer! Yet he still kept Keogh at Fort Lincoln when he came back. I think Weir's admiration for Custer was only one sided.
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Post by Tricia on Feb 19, 2006 23:16:14 GMT -6
Yes indeed; a college graduate, if I remember correctly? A woman of her genteel upbringing must have been grateful for a break from all the practical jokes and "games of romps" once in a while ... Elisabeth-- Absolutely right! Weir provided a dashing and intelligent escort during the summer of 1867 and the winter of 1870 (as I recall). But it is typical of Custer to disallow that relationship and continue with those of his own! Regards, LMC
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