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Post by erkki on Dec 8, 2007 16:54:19 GMT -6
dc wrote (and I know this post does not look as it should but I ran into problems posting and had to cut and paste and excuses, excuses excusts....)
Gee, erkki, this reads like an entirely different person wrote what you sent me last night.
Multifaceted personality here?
1. What "little Creek" on the retreat? The LBH?
I apologize--should have quoted the originals. Wallace testified: "I looked at my watch about the time General Custer called Major Reno over to his side of the little stream. It was then two o'clock." The Times version came out: "I remember looking at my watch when we recrossed the stream and it was then 4 o’clock, and the engagement must have begun an hour and a half before that." The Times version is used to support Gray's assumption that the skirmish line was formed at 3:18 and lasted abt 45 minutes.
2. The idea that anybody was checking his watch on that retreat is ludicrous. Maybe. His job, though. If he checked it upon summitting the hill, nothing ridiculous.
My recollection is that the recrossing of that stream on the retreat from the valley precluded pulling a pocket watch out of your britches with one hand on horseback. I could be wrong. Doesn't say he checked it on the hill.
3.(This is only slightly sillier than the idea that Godfrey, arriving on Reno Hill while Indians were all around shooting at them, would extract his notebook from his pocket, get a pencil, and make note of the time.) Why?
I could be wrong; but I think there was a fair amount of chaos when Benteen joined--finding out what happened, forming a skirmish line, shooting at Indians--even if the Indians did withdraw to a rational distance expeditiously.
4. This is evidently the basis for W.A. Graham's assertion, in a footnote, that Godfrey's notation of "4.20" marked Benteen's arrival on the hill. There is no other evidence to support that time. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Except he doesn't say that. The Graham manipulated time is the 5:20 train arrival, is it not? When Benteen came up, they were not surrounded by warriors. Firing was sporadic and distant on the east side. Godfrey would indeed recall the time he joined Reno.
Graham, footnote, p. 142, Custer Myth: "General Godfrey became convinced, after studying my analysis of the time periods, that his entry '4.20' referred to Benteen's junction with Reno on the hill.' Godfrey's recollection was that it was "about half past two when we joined Reno" (same page 142 marked with two **).
5. It's touching you have belief we know exactly where the tipi and morass were, and that because Nichols says it, the Truth is Known.
Actually, I'm sort of going on Meketa and Camp and more or less remembering the spot Hutchins pointed out, but mostly I suspect because of a perhaps touching thought that ARs can look asinine as all get out, but they don't come into being in a vacuum. That is, Wallace's estimates of 15 minutes at a trot of 7-8 mph. per regulation (attested by Knipe, Taylor, the Arikara scouts following Reno) comes out to 2 miles-- and 5 minutes at a gallop of 9-11 mph. comes out to about a mile (Culbertson, Knipe, Woodruff's 'scant mile') 9 or 10 miles from the divide (Wallace, WMRH, Camp gave "exactly 3 miles" and "3.23" mi by odometer, Meketa 3.5 mi.) 12.5 mi. divide to Ford A minus 9 or 10 comes out to about 3 mi; 2 mi at trot + 1 mi at gallop = 3 miles. It's in that general vicinity. Nichols came up with "between 1.6 and 2.2 miles from the Little Big Horn River" in the 1983 booklet. Haven't looked at In Custer's Shadow book lately except to see if he caught the halt to wait for Herendeen, et al. No matter how spacey I get, I have not looked upon any secondary source as Truth since I was 10 going on 11 in the 7th grade and found a co-operative librarian who would do ILLs for people under 21 (the limit in those olden days).
6. Still trotting, a little faster now at 7.5 mph., Reno reaches Ford A 10 minutes later at 2:53. Guesswork, and how long for watering?
Gray put Reno at a 7.5 mph trot to the ford--that's his guesswork, not mine. Wallace said gallop (RCOI p.22), Wilbur "galloping fast", Taylor has a gallop all the way from the tipi and Knipe a "slow gallop" over the same distance--but a gallop over that distance before going into battle is neither reasonable nor likely--wears the horses out fast; but Knipe does have just 'gallop' for the last mile. Using 10 mph as the average of Upton's 9-11 mph, one mile is covered in 6 minutes, close enough to Wallace's 5.
As for Reno watering, SGT O'Hara refused to let his men water, Porter said some men stopped to water, Varnum said he saw no one watering. Wallace took advantage of the closing up after they crossed to fill his canteen. I infer, on the basis of SGT O'Hara's action that no watering was ordered; and Morris and Roy said the men resented it.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 9, 2007 10:57:58 GMT -6
1. Multifaceted personality here? Possible. Unlikely.
1. Wallace testified: "I looked at my watch about the time General Custer called Major Reno over to his side of the little stream. It was then two o'clock." The Times version came out: "I remember looking at my watch when we recrossed the stream and it was then 4 o’clock, and the engagement must have begun an hour and a half before that." The Times version is used to support Gray's assumption that the skirmish line was formed at 3:18 and lasted abt 45 minutes. Confused. The first reference is to crossing what is now Reno Creek. Whatever the Times piece is, is ain't a 'version' of that incident but the LBH retreat. Secondly, what appeared in the papers wasn't subject to the corrections the official transcript was, true? Didn't you call that to our attention? If there is a conflict between paper and transcript, it's got to be the transcript that is believed. Further, a "must have been" should not be viewed as claim of precision.
2. My recollection is that the recrossing of that stream on the retreat from the valley precluded pulling a pocket watch out of your britches with one hand on horseback. I could be wrong. Doesn't say he checked it on the hill. It doesn't say he checked it on the hill, taking a breather, but it would be logical, would it not? I don't see the conflict here.
3.I could be wrong; but I think there was a fair amount of chaos when Benteen joined--finding out what happened, forming a skirmish line, 1shooting at Indians--even if the Indians did withdraw to a rational distance expeditiously. I read that the people on Reno Hill, while in confusion, were barely under attack at all. Nothing to prevent a time check by Godfrey, which he should have done on arrival.
4. Graham, footnote, p. 142, Custer Myth: "General Godfrey became convinced, after studying my analysis of the time periods, that his entry '4.20' referred to Benteen's junction with Reno on the hill.' Godfrey's recollection was that it was "about half past two when we joined Reno" (same page 142 marked with two **). Correct, and my stupid error and bad memory. But Godfrey was filling in his journal for a while afterwards, and isn't key. Further, for someone keeping time, his junction with Reno SHOULD have been noted, being an important event. It's not like he thought it another time and so written it and Graham made him erase it and sub this opinion.
The group letter writing exercise in early July probably established the majority of errors and controversies when questions were asked and got multiple or mashugga answers common in such exhausted and terrified circumstances, I'd think.
5. Were any of the people referenced about this morass issue there that day? The springs and morasses might vary a bit, we're told. Kanipe and Taylor are not Go-To guys, Kanipe suspicious, Taylor way late and highly derivative and pandering. Have no clue to what AR and ILL's references.
6. Gray put Reno at a 7.5 mph trot to the ford--that's his guesswork, not mine. Wallace said gallop (RCOI p.22), Wilbur "galloping fast", Taylor has a gallop all the way from the tipi and Knipe a "slow gallop" over the same distance--but a gallop over that distance before going into battle is neither reasonable nor likely--wears the horses out fast; but Knipe does have just 'gallop' for the last mile. Using 10 mph as the average of Upton's 9-11 mph, one mile is covered in 6 minutes, close enough to Wallace's 5. You understand that Gray's gaits and times are not meant to be taken rigidly, there must be a dif between Upton's thoroughbreds and the Army's smaller quarter horses. Gray would have no problem if there was no trot at all but a combo of walk and gallop, for example, which might in aggregate suggest an intermediate gait, and of course the land demands varying gaits. This prissy precision based upon guess and three year old memories that might include part of, but not all of, a section of the march on top of 'must have's' is bizarre. 7. As for Reno watering, SGT O'Hara refused to let his men water, Porter said some men stopped to water, Varnum said he saw no one watering. Wallace took advantage of the closing up after they crossed to fill his canteen. I infer, on the basis of SGT O'Hara's action that no watering was ordered; and Morris and Roy said the men resented it. Fine. But, how much time for whatever watering was done and getting organized on the west bank?
Anyway, only involved myself because of the puzzling email. Retiring.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 9, 2007 18:40:19 GMT -6
They didn't have to train all the horses only those in charge of setting the pace. I doubt Custer ever rode at the set pace rather he was all over the place as were the scouts yet at the end of the day they were in the same place.
It is not a problem to not pass anyone when in formation. Horses walk behind each other naturally. The problem is with the poorer condition horses after long days of marching the horses that were not the best to begin with start falling out. So if your setting the pace you choice is slow down or let them string out and fall out. There are some accounts that the latter occurred and the horses gave out.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2007 14:22:00 GMT -6
Here's another way to look at it. On flat ground it would be easy to maintain a pace of 3.75 mph and the distance covered should be equivalent to the time spent but the time spent crossing a river, sometimes up to one hour or difficult terrain changes the equivalency between time and distance. If it took one hour to cross the river there is no correlation to distance from that time or the Rosebud is much wider than I thought.
The accurate measurement of distance was done by a wheel counter and not the length of time. The pace is set by horseback to control the maximum speed at each gait not to ensure a equivalent time- distance ratio for all types of terrain.
AZ Ranger
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Post by erkki on Dec 10, 2007 15:28:40 GMT -6
I agree that horses left on their own have considerable horse sense, but we're talking about the army here, and if a regulation can be written to specify common sense, the army will write that regulation. I, too, doubt that Custer ever rode at the set pace but, precisely because he rode all over the place, I also doubt that Custer was the one setting the pace for the column. Nevertheless, there is some evidence that the Seventh was trained to move and march in formation. For example, Charles King described the way the 7th Cav. looked and moved on August 9, 1876: "Each company as it comes forward opens out like a fan, and a sheaf of skirmishers is launched to the front. Something in the snap and style of the whole movement stamps them at once; no need of waving guidon and stirring trumpet call to identify them. I recognize the Seventh Cavalry at a glance...." ("Meeting of Terry and Crook" p 39 of Custer's Last Battle.) This seems to me to support my impression that Custer's men and horses had acquired the precision of pace, speed, distances necessary to move in formation, either on the march or on display. At the least, there was enough time and distance on the march from Fort A. Lincoln to accustom new horses to the walk @ 3.75 mph and the trot @ 7-8 mph. The fact that the horses were already accustomed to these rates of travel should have facilitated the training of even troopers like Horner who walked the 318 miles to Yellowstone Depot and there received his first cavalry mount--a mule. Thus Bonifas p. 221: "The necessity for careful attention to proper gait, whether the command be moving at the walk, trot, or gallop, exists throughout the entire march, and the gait at which the troop is moving at any particular time should be at the regulation gait and neither faster nor slower. By care in this, all the troop horses, with few exceptions, gradually learn the rate of speed generally adopted at each of these gaits, and the march is therefore uniform."Devereaux's 1941 Cavalry Manual was written after after the walking rate was raised from 3.75 mph to 4 mph, but the fact that horses had to be trained to move at the regulation gait was unchanged: "Since the walking rate of four miles per hour is somewhat faster than the average horse will attain if given his own choice in the matter, it is necessary that he be trained to maintain this rate." (p. 196+ in the 1979 reprint) "The problem is with the poorer condition horses after long days of marching the horses that were not the best to begin with start falling out. So if your setting the pace you choice is slow down or let them string out and fall out." Slowing the pace is not an option for a military unit with an objective to reach. That is why there was a rear guard which brought along some or most of the 26 extra men on Reno Hill from Cos. C, E, F, I, L. I could be wrong about any or all of this. I hope I have not been obscure.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2007 20:02:02 GMT -6
I agree that horses left on their own have considerable horse sense, but we're talking about the army here, and if a regulation can be written to specify common sense, the army will write that regulation.
The Army writes regulations that make common sense?
I, too, doubt that Custer ever rode at the set pace but, precisely because he rode all over the place, I also doubt that Custer was the one setting the pace for the column. Nevertheless, there is some evidence that the Seventh was trained to move and march in formation. For example, Charles King described the way the 7th Cav. looked and moved on August 9, 1876:
"Each company as it comes forward opens out like a fan, and a sheaf of skirmishers is launched to the front. Something in the snap and style of the whole movement stamps them at once; no need of waving guidon and stirring trumpet call to identify them. I recognize the Seventh Cavalry at a glance...." ("Meeting of Terry and Crook" p 39 of Custer's Last Battle.)
You can read that about any cavalry unit has nothing to do with rate of speed but indicates more time spent on show then combat performance. Apparently the Indians were not afraid of snap and style so it served no useful function. Now if he said they hit all their targets out to 100 yards without a miss that would be impressive, that is our minimum requirement in proficiency so it is not impossible. How about firing on the move and hitting the intended target. That would have helped Reno and maybe others.
This seems to me to support my impression that Custer's men and horses had acquired the precision of pace, speed, distances necessary to move in formation, either on the march or on display. At the least, there was enough time and distance on the march from Fort A. Lincoln to accustom new horses to the walk @ 3.75 mph and the trot @ 7-8 mph. The fact that the horses were already accustomed to these rates of travel should have facilitated the training of even troopers like Horner who walked the 318 miles to Yellowstone Depot and there received his first cavalry mount--a mule.
If you use Boniface not Bonifas please don't cherry pick. You will not find 3.75 miles per hour in his book. The walk is 4 miles per hour. Boniface on page 223, nice number, "On starting from camp in the morning the first two miles or so is generally at a less rate then the regulation four miles per hour". After that they take a break of 5 minutes each hour and about a one hour break about two thirds through the march of the day.
Thus Bonifas p. 221: "The necessity for careful attention to proper gait, whether the command be moving at the walk, trot, or gallop, exists throughout the entire march, and the gait at which the troop is moving at any particular time should be at the regulation gait and neither faster nor slower. By care in this, all the troop horses, with few exceptions, gradually learn the rate of speed generally adopted at each of these gaits, and the march is therefore uniform."
Again you cherry pick. You left out the following on page 221 right after your quote "It is especially necessary that the gait at the head of the column be evenly maintained at all times(my point); any irregularity of gait at the head rapidly increases towards the rear until great discomfort is caused both for men and horses, and unnecessary fatigue. " If your not in the lead all you have to do is maintain spacing and follow the leader. Same thing done on dude ranches with inexperienced riders. It is that lead animal that is important. The same same was true of packtrains.
Here is some more Boniface ,page 224 ,"The rate to be taken on the march must be governed by circumstances such as the condition of the animals and the state of the road, the object of the march, etc; but it is the custom in the American cavalry service, under favorable conditions, that after the first halt the march will average a rate of five an hour, alternating the walk and the trot as has been said , and occasionally dismounting and leading for short distances, especially in climbing and descending steep rough hills. In dismounting and leading for short distances the horse is relieved of a great deal of weight and pounding, and some slight circulation of air passes along the horses back under the saddle blanket, and the men themselves are rested by the change; and in winter this dismounting of the rider enables him to keep his feet and legs warm, which become very cold and stiff when hanging idly from the horses side. The walk during the march should be at the rate of four miles and the trot not less than six and a half per hour."
Devereaux's 1941 Cavalry Manual was written after after the walking rate was raised from 3.75 mph to 4 mph, but the fact that horses had to be trained to move at the regulation gait was unchanged: "Since the walking rate of four miles per hour is somewhat faster than the average horse will attain if given his own choice in the matter, it is necessary that he be trained to maintain this rate." (p. 196+ in the 1979 reprint)
If you understand horses then it easy to understand how to keep them in formation. They are a herd animal and accustom to keeping up with the other horses as long as the speed is not to great for them. Once you no longer have to give them cues to stay at the interval they learn to maintain it no matter what the rate. It is the interval they must learn or constantly be given cues by the trooper.
"The problem is with the poorer condition horses after long days of marching the horses that were not the best to begin with start falling out. So if your setting the pace you choice is slow down or let them string out and fall out." Slowing the pace is not an option for a military unit with an objective to reach. That is why there was a rear guard which brought along some or most of the 26 extra men on Reno Hill from Cos. C, E, F, I, L.
Boniface disagrees with you, page 223, "After passing over rough ground or through narrow defiles, the head of each troop in a column should always decrease the rate of the march long enough to allow the rear to men to close up to the normal intervals without having to increase their gait. Distance thus lost by the troop is gained by the entire troop taking up an increased gait. If the above rule is not strictly adhered to , and the head of the column continues to move at the same gait as before, the rear troopers must increase the gait, often times being required to take up a gallop , to enable them to catch up and and take their proper places. As these delays are repeatedly occurring on every march, it is easy to see that if the rear men are required to trot and gallop every little while to close up, the horses in rear will become more fatigued than those in front, and it will necessitate a slower gait to enable the tired horses in rear to keep up at all.
I could be wrong about any or all of this. I hope I have not been obscure.
errki I enjoy your posts and you keep me on my toes. I do not rely on the books as much with horses and use what common sense has come to me by working with horses on the job for close to 29 years. So I know I can be wrong because I answer from my experience from riding single to large groups and the AZ Post Mounted School which required us to ride in formations. We ride in rough country and flat open country also which give me my thoughts on gaits and horses keeping together. That being said I could find nothing in Boniface to change my position. Rather it supported my thoughts on movements of large bodies of horses.
AZ Ranger
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Post by harpskiddie on Dec 10, 2007 21:08:00 GMT -6
Steve:
As a matter of opinion only, what do you think would be the condition of the horses and men of the Custer battalions if they covered, say, 12 miles from the divide between Davis and Ash Creeks at an average speed of, say, 8 miles per hour, or pretty much a stiff trot all the way. Would you expect that either or both would be nearing a worn out state? Would there have been a great deal of straggling and stringing out of the command?
Bearing in mind the previous marches, and hypothetically only. Thanks for your answer.
Gordie MC
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 10, 2007 22:52:37 GMT -6
Steve: As a matter of opinion only, what do you think would be the condition of the horses and men of the Custer battalions if they covered, say, 12 miles from the divide between Davis and Ash Creeks at an average speed of, say, 8 miles per hour, or pretty much a stiff trot all the way. Would you expect that either or both would be nearing a worn out state? Would there have been a great deal of straggling and stringing out of the command? Bearing in mind the previous marches, and hypothetically only. Thanks for your answer. Gordie MC Gordie I believe the trot is the best traveling speed for an individual horse. I stand at the trot in open country and even my quarterhorse can cover some ground at the trot. I also believe that in a large group the horses in the rear would have to canter or gallop to keep up if it was maintained for a sustained time. So you end up with very tired horses in the rear. If your horse can't keep up then you drop to the rear which is going faster or burning more energy at least to keep up. Actually they gallop or canter up, stop when the get the interval, and then fall behind which starts the process all over. The rear looks like an accordion. Soldiers on foot do the same thing when marching in large groups. If the objective does not allow the head of the column to slow from the trot then the column has to stretch out and finally stragglers drop out completely from fatigue. I don't know of any reason that this would not have occurred within 12 miles of attempting to maintain an 8 mile per hour trot rate for a solid 1.5 hours with the above mentioned conditions. I would expect there to be some worn out horses and if pressed to a gallop would quit on you. Steve That is why I believe Benteen was not traveling to slow. He knew how to maintain a horse to be ready for a fight.
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Post by harpskiddie on Dec 10, 2007 23:34:00 GMT -6
Thanks, Steve. I appreciate your superior knowledge when it comes to horses.
Gordie MC
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Post by erkki on Dec 18, 2007 18:33:59 GMT -6
AZ I enjoy your posts and they certainly keep me on my toes, leading to periodic conferences with my horse person--who is strongly inclined to agree with you about the trot being the easiest rate of speed. Horse person says in effect a jog trot (5 mph?) and doesn't know if it would be valid to postulate it over long distances/days' march.
Boniface writing in 1903 used a rate of speed changed from that of Upton/Cooke. Sorry I keep getting the spelling mixed up with the saint, had same problem with 'origin' once.
So you keep me thinking, even when I cannot agree.
Speaking from some experience, ARs have been known to spell out common sense. I have particularly fond memories of one in the correspondence series about folding paper. It was logical given the envelopes in use at the time (window for address of addresee, so you didn't have to type it twice).
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Post by harpskiddie on Dec 18, 2007 18:55:04 GMT -6
I believe that it was Varnum who said that the Seventh was a very fast walking regiment, as Custer set the pace and he usually maintained a gait of 5 mph which required the balance to trot from time to time to keep up with him. The elapsed timings of Wallace, from the divide to the confluence of the Middle Fork with the South Fork [where Reno crossed over to the same side as Custer], tend to confirm such an average rate.
If it wasn't Varnum, it was someone else of the regiment.
Gordie MC Merry Christmas
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Post by erkki on Dec 19, 2007 8:28:26 GMT -6
I believe that it was Varnum who said that the Seventh was a very fast walking regiment, as Custer set the pace and he usually maintained a gait of 5 mph which required the balance to trot from time to time to keep up with him. Edgerly to Graham, Dec.5, 1923: "It was estimated that the village was about fifteen miles from the Crow's Nest; this would take about four hours at a walk, the 7th Cav'y being a very fast walking reg't ( Custer Myth, p.216)." There is nothing about Custer usually setting the pace to 5 mph--that was the average achieved moving at a walk and a trot by cavalry in general. Custer was a cavalryman. He knew how to move his horses to keep them in condition for eventualities. There was a rear guard to pick up stragglers (Slaper in Brininstool). I see no reason to postulate unique characteristics to the 7th Cav, even if Custer himself did not take the position at the head of the column to set the pace, but constantly and characteristically was out ahead of the column--back and forth, checking with the scouts, talking to his captains, back again to look at the country, dropping back from the column at the lone tepee. He had subordinates to do their job with the companies in - God help us - accordance with regulations. 15/4=3.75 mph, the regulation walk in 1876. I put the "very fast walking reg't" down to unit pride. (Unit pride is good, so let's not get carried away on that.) The column traveled from the division halt about 1/2 mile west of the divide to the lone tepee in 1 hour 48 minutes. Assuming that the tepee was 3 or 3.23 or 3.5 mi. from Ford A and the divide is 12.5 mi. from the ford, the distance is around 9 miles covered at an average of a little more than 5 mph (1.8 hours x 5 mph= 9 mi). Parts of the column did have to gallop to regain their place in line when passing through difficult terrain, as Benteen noted was probable for the gray horse troop which he last sighted at a gallop.
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Post by elisabeth on Dec 19, 2007 8:36:08 GMT -6
Benteen also mentioned that he had a very fast-walking horse, and that most of his battalion had to trot to keep up with him. This was in his RCOI evidence, I think.
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Post by erkki on Dec 19, 2007 9:02:13 GMT -6
Benteen: "I have a very fast walking horse. He will go five miles an hour and it is impossible for a column of cavalry to keep up with him without being at a trot. If the right of the column is at a trot, probably the left will be at a fast trot or a gallop. I watched that column all the way through. I was four or five hundred yards ahead of it nearly all the time. We started out by twos but we had to go by file through defiles and up around rugged hills that were too steep to ascend and we had to circle around them. What I said was we were at a trot from the time we left General Custer's column to the time we watered the horses at the morass, from that time till we reached the ford "A" it was the same. It was not necessary to give the command "trot" because they were all at the trot at the time to keep up with me. That was the movement through, and that accounts for getting over so much ground in so short a time with the battalion."
Moeller (Brady 404) said Benteen walked all the way.
Recall that Custer told Benteen that he was setting the pace too fast after crossing the divide.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 19, 2007 9:22:20 GMT -6
erikki
One more try on my part.
If the walk pace was 3.75 mph and not an average of 3.75 mph then the horses could not stop, slow down or speed up. I think if you walk at 4 mph top speed then your average speed would be less than 4 mph.
The 4 mph is a rate such as on a speedometer. I believe the 3.75 mph would be the odometer divided by time.
If you take a 10 minute break each hour then it becomes 15 miles divided by 3.33 hours. It would take walking rate of 4.55 mph to accomplish 15 miles in 4 hours.
4.55 mph would be a fast rate to maintain at the walk. Horses don't walk at a average speed. The rate varies depending on position in the march, conditioning, and terrain characteristics.
Elisabeth I suspect that is one reason Benteen was so far in front. Also by having a faster gaited horse it allowed him to do more things than just move along with battalion.
AZ Ranger
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