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Post by elisabeth on Nov 30, 2007 11:30:26 GMT -6
Billy,
Wow, I must be blind as a bat. I thought I'd looked at all the alternative spellings too, but hadn't spotted him. Hmmm. Thanks.
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Post by blaque on Nov 30, 2007 11:51:35 GMT -6
Gordie,
Thanks for your details on the packers. In his story of the fight, as told to J.W. Schultz and published in Los Angeles Times on January 17, 1914, Billy Jackson says that in the night of June 24 he went to the packtrain’s camp and spent some time talking with an old friend, a civilian packer named William Sellew. There’s some trace in the records of this man? Or is Jackson (or Schultz) misrecollecting?
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Post by bc on Nov 30, 2007 12:05:36 GMT -6
A few thoughts on this Custer Fell First book.
There are some other items from the book I want to post yet so we can "get everything out there". Hopefully this weekend, I will comb the book again to do that. Some of what he says probably had merit because he was with the 7th later on. However the matter of him being at the LBH is in serious doubt. Joining in Aug of 1876 gave him access to enough info and enough veterans who were there to come up with his claim of being there. In later years, he was the adjutant for the National Indian Wars Veterans Association in Wichita, KS which gave him access to more info but this by itself doesn't necessarily automatically discredit or give credit to his story.
However the theory for the name of the book, Custer Fell First, apparently is alive and well. The other night I was too tired to reach out two feet to get my Where Custer Fell book with the old pictures. Instead I went to the post on this board about the 1877 pictures with 16 pages of posts. After getting through the first 3 pages, I didn't see any pictures but it appears that many that post on this board have their basic battle theories listed and many leave it open to the fact the Custer may have been hit early on.
I thank Elisabeth, Fred, Harps, GoCav, and Billy for helping to take to task this Lockwood account of the battle. Although he specifically states he was a packer on this campaign, he also mentions that he was "Scout" and "Packer" during his years with the 7th and that Charley Reynolds was his boss. I know the list of names for the campaign list Reynolds as a Scout and not one of the packers. Hopefully a review of the names of the Scouts and how they were paid may show something. I'm just wondering also if Lockwood or his uncle, John Raymond, show up on any roles as packer and/or scout from 1873 forward. This may establish whether he was just some Johnny come lately or not.
One thing I like about the book is its big print. Easy to read when I was a kid and easy to read when I'm at the bi-focal age.
Fred & Diane, besides a battle theory thread, we could also use a thread in the chronology such as "June 25, to Ford D and back" or something like that. It appears from the 1877 pictures thread that there is a general consensus that there was movement and/or action at Ford D which is probably not really part of the history of the battle that is generally known by many people as the focus seems to be in the areas where the bodies were found.
Also for Diane, I can't keep up with all the threads, so I tend to go look at the last 10 threads option to see what the hot topic is. I miss a lot because I don't have time to get here all that often and this is a very prolific message board. Could you up that number to say 25 or so last posts. That way I won't miss too much and if I can get on 2 or 3 times a day, I can always stop reading them when I get to the post from the last time I was there. Thanks
Billy, I am very much interested in those 2 rolls and especially if it has the early Kansas years. Having been researching the Santa Fe Trail, Kansas, and local history, and particularly military and Custer history, it will really help. I do a lot of stuff here in McPherson, Rice, and Barton counties. There is this old wives tail that says Custer, himself, was stationed at Station Little Arkansas/Camp Grierson on the Little Arkansas River. Everyone who knows anything knows Custer was never on that part of the Santa Fe Trail east of the Fort Zarah/Walnut Creek crossing area. This nice outspoken elderly lady who lives next to the Little Ark crossing keeps telling this tail and has painted on a sign there. However I am sure 7th cav escorts from Ft. Larned were probably there but I have also found that in 1868, Benteen when he commanded Fort Harker (at Kanopolis, KS) move a couple troops down the Fort Harker/ Camp Beecher road and was at Beecher(Wichita, KS) for a while before being called out to handle some Indian attacks where he intersected the trail in McPherson County and moved down it to Fort Zarah (Great Bend, KS). The fort and camp reports will tell me a lot as will the muster rolls for the locations of the troops. I may have a scanner that will work for microfilm although it would be a slow process. My daughter is at Lawrence and we have been averaging 8 or 9 KU basketball games a year but may cut back this year. It gets to be tedius to spend 5 to 6 hours round trip driving and especially after a night game. The weekend trips are go, go, go up there but we can figure something out. You are only a half hour or so away from there. We met a nice couple from Lawrence at the North Platte Conference and she worked at Penny's where my daughter works part time. Small world.
Our Quivira chapter of the SFTA, just got a National Park Service grant to place signs on all the back roads through these counties following the trail. It was a 3 year ordeal but after many prototypes we have a new 18" by 24" Santa Fe Trail Local Tour sign made from this new high reflective grade signage. (they stand out real well at night for night target practice unforfunately). This winter we will be putting them up. This started from a cheap little 12x18 sign with cheap lettering as our proposal but when the NPS got ahold of it, the size grew, they had to have their 9" logo in the middle of the sign, painted wasn't good enough, numerous prototypes, etc. to where we got to about $60 a sign but they are nice.
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Post by harpskiddie on Nov 30, 2007 12:13:55 GMT -6
blaque:
I've not seen the name Sellew in my researches, but you must remember that I generally limit myself to the 1876 campaign and the Little Horn in particular. It could be that it is a corruption of Lawless [maybe Jackson was dyslexic, or as you say misremembered]. Otherwise, I have no idea.
Gordie MC
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Post by blaque on Nov 30, 2007 12:46:34 GMT -6
Actually Jackson names his friend as Billy Sellew. All I know about him is that he existed and was some kind of frontiersman, as he is mentioned in a Genealogy forum from Miles City (Montana) in connection with Muggins Taylor, the Jackson brothers and the buffalo hunter “Yellowstone" Vic Smith.
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Post by markland on Dec 1, 2007 2:55:47 GMT -6
BC wrote:
BC, since you don't appear to be an ax-murderer, or even worse, a Republican, we have a spare bedroom for you & the lady if you ever want to roam over to Overland Park...no complaints about cats as we have 2 1/2 of the four-legged hairballs. The half is a stray which we are trying to adopt; or it is trying to adopt us, I haven't figured out which!
I'd love to go roaming down your way and look at the Indian Wars sites!
If you come over, we can go over to Ft. Leavenworth's library and look at regimental returns and post returns (let me know which ones you want to look at) as well as the Army & Navy Journal plus a bunch of other stuff. Plus, if on a week-day, we could roam over to the National Archives here in KC since they have all the post returns for KS forts or posts.
I'll IM you my contact info. \
By the way, Carolina is better than KU! But then Fred thinks some team named Georgetown stands a chance so there is no accounting for taste.
Be good,
Billy
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Post by fred on Dec 1, 2007 6:15:55 GMT -6
I spent a week in Kansas one night.
Go Hoyas!
Best wishes, GU Fred.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 3, 2007 23:35:11 GMT -6
bc,
I'll leave it to Fred to modify these discussions, but I have completed your other request.
Merry Christmas!
Diane
P.S. If you are logged in, the blue dot on the file folder on the far left of each board will show you where there are new messages you have not read.
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Post by bc on Dec 4, 2007 0:48:48 GMT -6
Thank you Diane. The 25 latest posts should help a lot of people here. A Merry Christmas and a hug and a kiss to you. I occasionally sneek a quick peek on the board without logging in but then sometimes, like this last weekend, the last thing I want to do is sit in front of the computer. From Friday evening to Monday morning, I couldn't even spell computer so I've been playing catchup ever since.
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 4, 2007 10:58:54 GMT -6
You are very welcome. I rate a hug AND a kiss? Hunk, BC has outdone you!!!
My main purpose here is to make these boards as user-friendly and as enjoyable as possible, so feel free to let me know anytime you have a suggestion.
Best wishes, Diane
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Post by fred on Dec 4, 2007 12:20:53 GMT -6
Yeah, bc, go ahead! Make another suggestion where she ropes me in and I'll break my anti-Kansas fast and hunt you down!
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Post by Diane Merkel on Dec 5, 2007 0:33:19 GMT -6
Don't you just love Fred when he's grumpy?
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Post by fred on Dec 6, 2007 3:48:36 GMT -6
Fred's always grumpy; that's the nature of the beast.
Best wishes, Beast
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Post by erkki on Dec 8, 2007 13:33:57 GMT -6
Guess this goes here as well as anywhere. I have a 42 page document called FUBAR dedicated to Gray. If you all are depending on his interconnections as proof, I'd advise tracking down the sources to see if you think they said what Gray says they said. So, for the skirmish line formation at 3:18:
Wallace testified, "It was probably 20 minutes after two when we crossed the creek first," but Gray wrote: "This time is 33 minutes too early and throws everything out of kilter; itineraries violate evidence, intercommunications become impossible, and "error" lights flash every step of the way." Indeed they do. Red flags. Hair rising gently all over my head. Because, if you're doing a step-by-step scientific investigation of the time involved, you can't know when the next step is reached until you get there. Call me simple-minded.
33 minutes too early for what? If M,A,G crossed the creek at 2:20, then the skirmish line could have been formed about 2:30. If they remained in the valley for 45 minutes, then Reno could have been on the hill by 3:15 to 3:30, as Wallace testified. Since Benteen saw the retreat and arrived while men were still climbing the bluffs, then Benteen also was on the bluffs by 3:15-3:30, official time.
But Gray knew that Benteen joined Reno after 4 o'clock; because a) Wallace looked at his watch when crossing the LBH on the retreat, and b) Wallace testified that the reunion of Benteen and Reno occurred about an hour and a half after Reno received the order to charge and separated from Custer. Taken in order:
a) The statement that Wallace looked at his watch at 4 o'clock when crossing the liitle creek on retreat occurs in the Chicago Times account of the third day of the RCOI when reporters were not allowed to take notes in the courtroom but were relying on memory to write it up in snatches. In Nichols edition, Wallace said he looked at his watch when Reno crossed the little creek at 2 o'clock. The Times account is a reporter error, unfortunately and foolishly repeated by others writing after Gray.
The idea that anybody was checking his watch on that retreat is ludicrous. (This is only slightly sillier than the idea that Godfrey, arriving on Reno Hill while Indians were all around shooting at them, would extract his notebook from his pocket, get a pencil, and make note of the time.)
b) Lee was dissatisfied with Wallace's original time of 3:15-3:30 and, under Lee's examination, Wallace ended up making the hour and a half from the time Cooke gave Reno the order to charge and the two units separated start at 2:30. In effect, Wallace ended up testifying that Cooke gave Reno the order to charge when Reno dismounted his troops in the valley - meaning, of course, that Custer separated from Reno when Reno was dismounting in the valley. Therefore, Benteen was up at 4 o'clock or a little later. This is evidently the basis for W.A. Graham's assertion, in a footnote, that Godfrey's notation of "4.20" marked Benteen's arrival on the hill. There is no other evidence to support that time. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
But if you 'know' that Benteen wasn't up until after 4 o'clock and that Reno was in the valley for 45 minutes, then obviously the skirmish line cannot have been formed before 3:15--make it 3:18 to go with the other calculations that prevented Reno from crossing at Ford A at 2:20, official time.
Well, that is easily accomplished by having Reno cross the creek a mile above the lone tepee, although Knipe, Ryan, and Reno made the crossing within sight of the tepee. Wallace placed the crossing 9-10 miles from the divide, about the distance from the divide to the tepee. Then have Reno and Custer walk together for a mile to get to the tepee site which is maybe 4 miles from the river at 2:15. From there Reno trots at 6 mph to reach the flats 2.75 miles away at 2:43 in 28 minutes, and get the order to charge. Still trotting, a little faster now at 7.5 mph., Reno reaches Ford A 10 minutes later at 2:53.
The distance from the tepee to the point of separation is not 2.75 mi., but more like 2 - 2.25 mi.--2.5 mi. at the absolute outside. At the standard cavalry trot of 7-8 mph the distance was covered in about 15 minutes: Wallace's time between the crossing of the creek at 2:15 and the receipt of the order at 2:20. The remaining mile was taken at the gallop [9-11] mph. and easily covered in 5-6 minutes: Wallace's 2:20.
Gray extended Wallace's estimated 20 minutes between the crossing of the creek and Ford A to 53 minutes. Therefore, Reno formed the skirmish line at 3:18, and Benteen didn't get to the bluffs until 4 o'clock or later.
Peace, AZ. I cannot make a distinction between the gait employed and the miles covered at any specific gait, because the army decided that horses be trained to walk at 3.75 mph.; trot, 7-8 mph.; and gallop 9-11 mph. so that companies/units of men arrive at the desired position as a unit and in condition to fight--with no damage to the equipment from the horses stepping on each other. Keep your equipment in shape; keep your men working together.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Dec 8, 2007 15:39:19 GMT -6
Gee, erkki, this reads like an entirely different person wrote what you sent me last night.
1. What "little Creek" on the retreat? The LBH?
2. The idea that anybody was checking his watch on that retreat is ludicrous. Maybe. His job, though. If he checked it upon summitting the hill, nothing ridiculous.
3.(This is only slightly sillier than the idea that Godfrey, arriving on Reno Hill while Indians were all around shooting at them, would extract his notebook from his pocket, get a pencil, and make note of the time.) Why?
4. This is evidently the basis for W.A. Graham's assertion, in a footnote, that Godfrey's notation of "4.20" marked Benteen's arrival on the hill. There is no other evidence to support that time. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Except he doesn't say that. The Graham manipulated time is the 5:20 train arrival, is it not? When Benteen came up, they were not surrounded by warriors. Firing was sporadic and distant on the east side. Godfrey would indeed recall the time he joined Reno.
5. It's touching you have belief we know exactly where the tipi and morass were, and that because Nichols says it, the Truth is Known.
6. Still trotting, a little faster now at 7.5 mph., Reno reaches Ford A 10 minutes later at 2:53. Guesswork, and how long for watering?
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