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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -6
The whole issue of Reno/Benteen moving north, the controversy surrounding it, the personalities that came into play, the physical job of moving (wounded-dismounts and the like),and the nature of the movement, strung out and fragmented, has been one that troubles most of us.
There are those that would say, orders are orders, notes are notes. Well they are, and no one can say that these two did not comply. They did.
I have come to think, that some Victorian notion of honor was the driving reason. I did not live in that time, so I can't possibly understand the concept as they did. I read Holmes, written near the time, and for those of you that do as well, you realize that many of the stories in the Canon revolve around scandal and honor damaged by some means. His very first short story Scandal in Bohemia, revolves around a photo of the prince with Irene Adler, an adventuress, that would prevent the wedding between the prince and a member of another noble house. The adventuress was an actress, not a street walker or con artist. Today this would be a so what, ho hum. All this then the Holmes stories, the death or glory sense of honor, is both foreign to us in this day, and our modern sense of what honor is.
The modern sense of honor requires that we first look at mission, and then the welfare of those that we command and serve. We have no obligation to sacrifice the many to save the few. We in this age realize that any given mission is modified by events not foreseen, and the circumstances surrounding those events. There is no obligation to fall upon one's sword, unless good can be derived from the process of that falling. We depend upon good judgment in the decision making process, not blind obedience to orders and tradition.
It is a big time no-no in our services, all of them to never leave a comrade behind. The other day I came in in the middle of a first rate movie about men in combat "The Story of G.I. Joe" based on Pyle. This one scene had a sergeant returning from patrol. He states - We lost LT so and so, along with Brown and Green. Fred was wounded, but we got him back. The implication is that So and So, Brown, and Green were left out there somewhere in the Italian rain to rot. OK sergeant, the captain says, get some chow. The expression on the sergeant face was one of- I did the best I could, and on the captain's - It's OK, I know you did. The captain then turns to a newly reported in LT and says nothing more than - Take over So and So's platoon. In other words, let's get back to business. The traditionalists would scream at this. It does not matter. The best we can do, is the best we can do.
That is all that is asked Do the best you can, and if what was done on Reno Hill and the movement north from that place, was the best they could do, then it should be left at that.
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Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2015 15:13:44 GMT -6
I am sure that the Victorian mindset had much to do with some of the actions on the battlefield that day. I have always thought that you have to really look at the unwritten code of gentlemanly behavior to understand some of the things that happened. I will admit that I am weak on Victorian mores but I consider myself fairly well versed on Regency, as people passed from Regency(Federalist in the US) behaviors became even more bound by social rules.
The other thing you have to remember is how close 1876 is to the Civil War which really changed the US's view of war and death. Reno taking time to go find Hodgeson's body made sense that day, even if it doesn't now. Families needed those bodies or personal effects and Reno was doing his duty to a friend by taking care of his now widow or family.
As for Reno moving the wounded from Reno Hill to Weir Peak (or is it Point). If everyone else left to try to locate Custer, would he really have a choice. If as they thought at the time that Custer had been possibly chased north, then Reno can't let himself get left behind. He absolutely can't just leave the wounded. The thoughts of what would happen to someone who lived to be captured by the Indians was too terrifying to consider. It would be better to risk everything than stay behind.
Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 15:39:58 GMT -6
All good, all granted, excellent insights. You get a picket fence in your OER
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 22, 2015 16:06:45 GMT -6
OER or ORE
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 17:16:12 GMT -6
OER. She is a Colonel in the Texas Rangers
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:54:31 GMT -6
I am sure that the Victorian mindset had much to do with some of the actions on the battlefield that day. I have always thought that you have to really look at the unwritten code of gentlemanly behavior to understand some of the things that happened. I will admit that I am weak on Victorian mores but I consider myself fairly well versed on Regency, as people passed from Regency(Federalist in the US) behaviors became even more bound by social rules. The other thing you have to remember is how close 1876 is to the Civil War which really changed the US's view of war and death. Reno taking time to go find Hodgeson's body made sense that day, even if it doesn't now. Families needed those bodies or personal effects and Reno was doing his duty to a friend by taking care of his now widow or family. As for Reno moving the wounded from Reno Hill to Weir Peak (or is it Point). If everyone else left to try to locate Custer, would he really have a choice. If as they thought at the time that Custer had been possibly chased north, then Reno can't let himself get left behind. He absolutely can't just leave the wounded. The thoughts of what would happen to someone who lived to be captured by the Indians was too terrifying to consider. It would be better to risk everything than stay behind. Beth Hey Beth, some of the points you bring up are some of the ones I struggle to equate. Reno is praised for going to look for the body of one soldier; how many men did he leave behind in the timbers? How many wounded were left behind? Did he even know? Yet he gets a free pass because he went to find his buddy? It doesn't add up for me. We are also told that they couldn't have moved out sooner because they had wounded on the hill to be cared for, defensive positions and regrouping to do, re-establish command and communication yet Reno had time to go look for one fallen soldier. And to dispatch a burial party? That was a priority at the time? While he was away, Weir is heading off after Custer. Just doesn't add up for me.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jan 22, 2015 21:44:34 GMT -6
First, forget 'buddy' and think 'adjutant', who would have papers and stuff upon his corpse of arguable importance. And he's pretty close to the troops and they'd get to witness his desecration in some detail. Good for morale. Get the stuff, cover him up.
Second, my impression is you either charge and break out or you don't. There is confusion, but accounts suggest that some people stayed behind as much as were left, because of cover, etc. And were they supposed to stay there and die to the last man at the windows of a huge village because a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do? Or do you save as many men as possible however you can to continue the fight? Third, there were not many wounded left at the time of the 'charge', but increased rapidly on their way east across the river. Nonsense to lose two to not save one on the way back.
Weir took off 'after Custer' and when confronted with the enemy wilted back and wasn't a factor of note thereafter. It's not like he heroically charged down to Weir Pt. They puttered down at a reasonable gait, and it's as likely he was more concerned about being left out of a winning fight than saving Custer, whom he had no reason to think needed saving at that point.
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Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2015 21:52:40 GMT -6
First, I didn't say praised. I said understandable. There is a difference. I try neither to praise or condemn but understand what happened.
I really doubt that Reno intentionally left people in the timber--that it was more of an occasion of they didn't hear the command to leave. Remember it was a battle and lots of unplanned things happen there is also a lot of noise and confusion. It's why they use trumpets to be heard. I don't know if Reno used a trumpet or if they were still under Custer's no trumpet order. I do know anyone in that timber must have had ringing ears from the noise. Think about how many guns were being fired and how close they were to each other. We use hearing protection now, they didn't. Also I believe almost all of the people who were left behind made their way up to Reno Hill later in the day or night.
Reno's going for Hodgson's personal effects was a mark of respect to his close friend. He was able to return to Hodgson's widow items that would be precious to her and assure her that his body wasn't--disrespected--by Indians. After the fear of losing their loved one, falling into the hands of 'the savages' had to be second. Reno would be able to assure her that he didn't. If there was another officer down there (on the bluff side of the river) he would have gone to him. I can honestly say I don't know about an enlisted man though because they would have had a difference in relationship (Officer to enlisted man) I'm not saying that he wouldn't have done his best for an injured man who was reachable, just that he wouldn't probably have gone down to retrieve his body or effects.
Remember they were waiting for the pack train to arrive and until it did they just had to secure the area. Reno was a commander. It seems to me that he just had to turn to Benteen and tell him what needed to be done, and Benteen would have made sure everyone else had assignments. Sort of like how Custer just told Reno and Benteen to do and went on his way. If Benteen wasn't there yet, Reno would have turned to whoever was next in line in command. Reno couldn't care for the injured, that was what a doctor and his orderly was for, he just had to make sure someone was there to do it. Once he had handed out instructions on what they should do and he was then was free to slip down the hill. We don't know if while looking for Hodgson he also checked to see if anyone else was reachable or did a bit of scouting by eyeing the bluff from beyond. Being a military man, he probably did so even if it was an unconscious effort--like when you look at a sign and know what it says without really reading it. Really what Reno did, in the end was not all that different from Custer riding on after he told Reno to charge.
As for Weir. Riding off on his own is not a thing to praise. He risked the lives of everyone under his commnd by not having the first clue about what was ahead. I guess I look at it as insubordination. Also before you make Weir a hero, remember Weir is the one who insisted that they ride off and leave an injuried man behind when returning to Reno Hill. That is a much bigger sin that leaving behind men by mistake.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 21:53:18 GMT -6
I am not sure that Reno was ever praised for what he did. Most point to it as an indication, that he had lost balance, due to his experience in the valley, primarily with brains being splattered all over him. No one to my knowledge gives him a free pass. Of course his buddy was much closer than the timber area, the valley was still full of Indians, and many of those men left behind opted not to go.
Reno was clearly shaken, after all we pick the Renos of the world from the human race. Benteen was obviously the lead agent in the reorganization and consolidation phase.
Now mine to you,
Tell me based upon your reading how Reno could have done it either differently or better in the valley. Careful here, and please don't tell me he conducted a retreat, or you will be shot before sunrise.
Tell me how, given the exact same situation confronting Reno and Benteen, when Benteen arrives how it could have been done better or differently?
The ball is in your court. I expect clear concise answers with no I hate Reno, I hate Benteen Custer fanboy stuff. Pure sound tactical decision making. You are the one that says these two were bad boys. Show us how, by showing us what they should have done. It is OK to decline, but if you do, do not open your mouth again about how bad they were.
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Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2015 21:57:03 GMT -6
Good point DC about the adjutant. Perhaps you can explain to me what an adjutant would be doing at the battle? I am unclear sometimes about certain titles and the jobs it describes.
Beth
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Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2015 22:04:35 GMT -6
I am not sure that Reno was ever praised for what he did. Most point to it as an indication, that he had lost balance, due to his experience in the valley, primarily with brains being splattered all over him. No one to my knowledge gives him a free pass. Of course his buddy was much closer than the timber area, the valley was still full of Indians, and many of those men left behind opted not to go. Reno was clearly shaken, after all we pick the Renos of the world from the human race. Benteen was obviously the lead agent in the reorganization and consolidation phase. Now mine to you, Tell me based upon your reading how Reno could have done it either differently or better in the valley. Careful here, and please don't tell me he conducted a retreat, or you will be shot before sunrise. Tell me how, given the exact same situation confronting Reno and Benteen, when Benteen arrives how it could have been done better or differently? The ball is in your court. I expect clear concise answers with no I hate Reno, I hate Benteen Custer fanboy stuff. Pure sound tactical decision making. You are the one that says these two were bad boys. Show us how, by showing us what they should have done. It is OK to decline, but if you do, do not open your mouth again about how bad they were. Last night I was watching a show about the Lisbon earthquake in the mid 1700's and one of the things they mentioned was dissociation when in a time of extreme fear or pressure. It made think of both reports of Reno and perhaps even Thompson. Of course we can't play armchair psychologist now, but it does show that if someone is experiences something extreme, their minds will do the best to protecct them. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 22:30:59 GMT -6
First things first. If I had been able to punch the like button on yours and DC's posts ten times I would have done so First rate from both of you.
The adjutant: Today the adjutant is the principal administrative staff officer. At that time he was whatever his commander wanted him to be. DC is quite correct that he would have had on his person documents and information vital to Reno. I think it was ill advised for Reno himself to go, but the effort should have been made.
We tend to think that combat does not effect people adversely, both during and after. You have literally thousand upon thousands roaming the streets today, who have mental damage from what they saw and experienced. We all just want it to go away, out of our sight and out of our conscience minds. It has always been that way and always will be that way, for while treatment can mitigate, it cannot eliminate.
I have never sat down and looked at Reno in depth, but I think a good case could be made if solid research was done, that the death of his wife and LBH were mental turning points in his life. His drinking did not help, but regardless of that he was on a steep downhill slide thereafter. I truly believe his death came as a relief to him. That is one reason I can't abide that Custer bitch and her pimp. They made it worse for him, in the same way, we today would make it worse for a PTSD patient, were we to subject them to the same vile slander.
The human mind is a fragile thing, that combat has no pity on.
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Post by Beth on Jan 22, 2015 22:49:52 GMT -6
First things first. If I had been able to punch the like button on yours and DC's posts ten times I would have done so First rate from both of you. The adjutant: Today the adjutant is the principal administrative staff officer. At that time he was whatever his commander wanted him to be. DC is quite correct that he would have had on his person documents and information vital to Reno. I think it was ill advised for Reno himself to go, but the effort should have been made. We tend to think that combat does not effect people adversely, both during and after. You have literally thousand upon thousands roaming the streets today, who have mental damage from what they saw and experienced. We all just want it to go away, out of our sight and out of our conscience minds. It has always been that way and always will be that way, for while treatment can mitigate, it cannot eliminate. I have never sat down and looked at Reno in depth, but I think a good case could be made if solid research was done, that the death of his wife and LBH were mental turning points in his life. His drinking did not help, but regardless of that he was on a steep downhill slide thereafter. I truly believe his death came as a relief to him. That is one reason I can't abide that Custer bitch and her pimp. They made it worse for him, in the same way, we today would make it worse for a PTSD patient, were we to subject them to the same vile slander. The human mind is a fragile thing, that combat has no pity on. Don't forget he also lost his son to her family if I recall correctly. I don't know if that was before or after 1876. That is enough to break anyone, but then add the pressure from Libby and her minions and I agree you could probably list his cause of death as suicide by alcohol. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Jan 22, 2015 23:17:01 GMT -6
I think it was a horserace between booze and cancer. I think cancer won by a nose.
Regardless, he did his job, and under the circumstances that is remarkable unto itself. Benteen did his job. As far as I can determine they all did their jobs.
Custer was the sole cause of what happened. He alone should have been held accountable. He was not, at least not in the proper time and place, largely do to a cheap no 'count floozy, with her unfulfilled dreams of glory and that sorry ass pimp who peddled her wares.
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Post by shaw on Jan 23, 2015 17:18:29 GMT -6
Reno is a tragic figure. In 1876, he probably was on his way to becoming a full blown alcoholic and had personality issues that did not easily endear him to people. I have often thought about "what if" Custer had not been allowed to rejoin the 7th in the Spring of 1876 and Reno had commanded the regiment.
Would Terry have allowed him to operate independently?
If Terry had allowed the 7th to operate independently, would Reno have followed a similar course as Custer?
Something tells me that he would have been a better commander of the 7th in that specific campaign despite obvious drawbacks. The following is IMHO.
The Custer clique would have resented him, but they had worked with him for months, while Custer was away, preparing the regiment for the campaign without any big issues. Resentment or not, the clique would have followed orders.
Reno would have been less irresponsible. Even during his scout (which Custer resented) Reno had shown initiative in exceeding orders resulting in a better understanding of where the NA's were headed. Terry had been fine with it. Custer, furious because Custer hadn't been in command. It wasn't a Custer operation. Terry had ordered it. It was easier to be angry at Reno than Terry.
Reno would have done a better job of communication with subordinates. This is a supposition on my part. For all of Reno's negatives, he was not known as a glory hunter or a commander who didn't communicate. Custer didn't consult with his officers (rarely if at all). Reno would have.
His actions on June 25th when he charged the village, halted, fell back to the timber and then "charged" the bluffs was the worst single day of his military career. He just plain lost it in very difficult circumstances.
He is the tragic figure of the LBH on the army's side. He was the low hanging fruit for scapegoating.
Had everything happened as it did, but had Reno conducted an organized retreat to the bluffs with himself and a line of riflemen covering that retreat, things might have been different. If Reno would have been among the last to cross the LBH like Ney crossing that last bridge during the retreat from Moscow, he would have been seen differently.
The NA's admitted that the panicked retreat was like hunting buffalo (or words to that order). An organized retreat might have held the NA's at bay while the command crossed the LBH and retreated up the bluffs.
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