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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 21, 2015 14:03:53 GMT -6
Having established that they handled the situation correctly, they then go and ruin it by dragging the wounded along in an effort to catch up with Custer, well I don’t know who was responsible for that mistake, they had a fairly decent position with good line of sight, water was close by. The best option would be to leave a small force to garrison the hill and care for the wounded and defend the packs, maybe make some rudimentary fortifications and gather as much water as possible, don’t forget there were hundreds of Indians around the place earlier, and these would be still active someplace, so it would make sense to have a fall back position in case everything goes pear shaped, which it did.
Ian.
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Post by Beth on Jan 21, 2015 14:15:11 GMT -6
Having established that they handled the situation correctly, they then go and ruin it by dragging the wounded along in an effort to catch up with Custer, well I don’t know who was responsible for that mistake, they had a fairly decent position with good line of sight, water was close by. The best option would be to leave a small force to garrison the hill and care for the wounded and defend the packs, maybe make some rudimentary fortifications and gather as much water as possible, don’t forget there were hundreds of Indians around the place earlier, and these would be still active someplace, so it would make sense to have a fall back position in case everything goes pear shaped, which it did. Ian. I wonder if Reno had a choice. If Benteen moved on to make contact with Custer, wouldn't Reno be forced to move up to remain in contact? It wouldn't be ideal but he would have no chance of survival if Benteen moved past Weir Point and he lost contact with Benteen. Beth
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Post by Beth on Jan 21, 2015 14:17:55 GMT -6
Can someone explain to me why Weir Point was less defensivable than Reno Hill, or at least why Reno Hill was a better choice. I know I have my opinions but I would love to have a more informed answer from people who know.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2015 14:35:12 GMT -6
Weir Point is like Thomas' English Muffins Beth, full of nooks and cranies.
The short answer is that the terrain is so compartmented that it was poor for defense with such a limited amount of men. Fields of fire went from some good to some very poor, and there was a multitude of avenues of approach for a determined attacker. Most important though is the compartmentation where it would be very difficult to plug up any hole that should appear in those impregnable skirmish lines, after the horses failed to dodge arrows.
Reno Hill was not ideal by any means, but it did offer good field of fire, and the ability to spread out and still observe nearly the whole perimeter. Any concentrated attack against it in one area would allow you the ability to pull a least engaged as your reserve and plug up anything that sprung a leak.
Ian: I don't know why they moved the way they did. In the end moving accomplished nothing. That same information they got from the move could have easily been obtained by a very few. Dumb play in my book.
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Post by Beth on Jan 21, 2015 14:57:51 GMT -6
Weir Point is like Thomas' English Muffins Beth, full of nooks and cranies. The short answer is that the terrain is so compartmented that it was poor for defense with such a limited amount of men. Fields of fire went from some good to some very poor, and there was a multitude of avenues of approach for a determined attacker. Most important though is the compartmentation where it would be very difficult to plug up any hole that should appear in those impregnable skirmish lines, after the horses failed to dodge arrows. Reno Hill was not ideal by any means, but it did offer good field of fire, and the ability to spread out and still observe nearly the whole perimeter. Any concentrated attack against it in one area would allow you the ability to pull a least engaged as your reserve and plug up anything that sprung a leak. Ian: I don't know why they moved the way they did. In the end moving accomplished nothing. That same information they got from the move could have easily been obtained by a very few. Dumb play in my book. Can you explain what you mean by compartmented? Perhaps if I give my opinion on why it wouldn't work you can tell me where I am right and wrong. I realize that the Weir Point of today is very different from what it was in 1876 and that the road bisects it. However even then it was highground and to a layman be more defensable. However if you were anywhere but on the taller sugarloaf, the sugarloaf is going to block your view. It's why I said that the thought of using Weir Point for defense reminds me of a 'living Christmas tree" with everyone clinging to the sides of the sugarloaf. Also there is no place to shelter the hospital and horses effectivley. I had not thought of the moving troops around to reenforce and plug holes though. What is Weir Peak anyway--geologically? A basalt outcrop? Beth I
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2015 15:11:01 GMT -6
What is it? Have not a clue.
Compartmented - Broken, screwed up by nature's Hogan's Goat
You have it correct. No shelter, undue exposure, no time to dig, and nothing to dig with.
High is better than low. It is always better than low, but unlike the Constitution - All high ground is not created equal.
A tactical commander, especially on defense spends a good deal of time whiffing, and that whiffing is centered on staying there. Hole plugging is the centerpiece of the whiff.
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Post by montrose on Jan 21, 2015 16:26:41 GMT -6
CONSOLIDATION AND REORGANIZATION 3-136. Once enemy resistance on the objective has ceased, the platoon quickly consolidates to defend against a possible counterattack and prepares for follow-on missions. 3-137. Consolidation consists of actions taken to secure the objective and defend against an enemy counterattack. The platoon leader ensures the platoon— • Eliminates enemy resistance on the objective. • Establishes security beyond the objective by securing areas that may be the source of enemy direct fires or enemy artillery observation. • Designates squad and crew-served weapons defensive positions. • Designates and covers dismounted avenues of approach with machine guns and mounted avenues of approach with Javelins or AT4s. • Brings the ICVs forward into designated positions. • Establishes additional security measures, such as OPs and patrols. • Prepares for and assists the passage of follow-on forces (if required). • Continues to improve security by conducting other necessary defensive actions. (These steps, outlined in Chapter 4 of this manual, include EA 3-138. Reorganization, normally conducted concurrently with consolidation, consists of actions taken to prepare for follow-on operations. As with consolidation, the platoon leader must plan and prepare for reorganization as he conducts his TLPs. He ensures the platoon is prepared to— • Reestablish chain of command. • Provide essential medical treatment and evacuate casualties as necessary. • Cross-level personnel and adjust task organization as required. • Conduct resupply operations, including rearming and refueling. • Redistribute ammunition. • Conduct required maintenance. armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/attp3_21x9.pdfSource is Stryker Platoon manual. Basic functions are the same, even 150 years later. First step is always security. Then you prepare for further combat.
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Post by montrose on Jan 21, 2015 16:33:08 GMT -6
So what is the situation on Reno Hill?
The enemy is not running. Their numbers are huge, at least 1,500.
It is vital to assemble the regiment. The critical factor is gathering the regiment rear, get everyone together.
Notice that the regiment did move forward after consolidation.
Speed will be slow due to wounded, dismounted men, and the trains.
If you do want to leave men behind, the stay behind force should be capable of holding out against a valley sized attacking force until Terry and Gibbon arrive. How many men will that require?
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2015 16:42:49 GMT -6
I would say it would require two battalions, and to sustain yourself packs and escort.
If George Custer wants to go to hell, he is sure as that same hell not going to drag me along with him.
From what I have already seen, and the opinion formed can only be reinforced, not dispelled, by what any patrol can tell me, I am already deep in the swamp, and I have no intention of drowning in it.
Moving forward was a grave error
There are three principles involved here. The first one is common sense - Look before you leap. The second is tactical - Never, NEVER reinforce defeat. The third is my own - When you attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, more often than not you get bitten rather badly.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 17:39:43 GMT -6
I would say it would require two battalions, and to sustain yourself packs and escort. If George Custer wants to go to hell, he is sure as that same hell not going to drag me along with him. From what I have already seen, and the opinion formed can only be reinforced, not dispelled, by what any patrol can tell me, I am already deep in the swamp, and I have no intention of drowning in it. Moving forward was a grave error There are three principles involved here. The first one is common sense - Look before you leap. The second is tactical - Never, NEVER reinforce defeat. The third is my own - When you attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, more often than not you get bitten rather badly. In hindsight your three points would be perfectly valid. On Reno Hill though I don't believe all apply. First one yes. Second and third, at the time, they did not know Custer had been defeated. All they knew was Custer was over the hill and they had an order to come. The attempt had to be made.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 21, 2015 17:56:19 GMT -6
No, the attempt did not have to be made, nor does it have anything to do with hindsight.
If you read the totality of what I have written on this thread, what Reno/Benteen need more than anything is information. A small patrol could provide that. Custer was engaged past the point of no return while Reno/Benteen were in the consolidation and reorganization phase, and that information, reported by a patrol would have provided them everything they need to make a decision.
Get up very early when you talk this stuff with me friend, and read how I prefaced this last post. Either that or read Fred. or Montrose
You are still in Custer Disneyland. If you look before you leap, given what you (by your patrols) would have seen, you would know that reinforcing defeat is all it would be and the biting speaks for itself. You must think I am riding that turnip truck again.
You do know what a recon patrol is, do you not?
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 21, 2015 18:09:57 GMT -6
Chuck, your first response to my question, was very to the point. It almost looks as though it comes Montrose's manual post.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 18:15:30 GMT -6
CONSOLIDATION AND REORGANIZATION 3-136. Once enemy resistance on the objective has ceased, the platoon quickly consolidates to defend against a possible counterattack and prepares for follow-on missions. 3-137. Consolidation consists of actions taken to secure the objective and defend against an enemy counterattack. The platoon leader ensures the platoon— • Eliminates enemy resistance on the objective. • Establishes security beyond the objective by securing areas that may be the source of enemy direct fires or enemy artillery observation. • Designates squad and crew-served weapons defensive positions. • Designates and covers dismounted avenues of approach with machine guns and mounted avenues of approach with Javelins or AT4s. • Brings the ICVs forward into designated positions. • Establishes additional security measures, such as OPs and patrols. • Prepares for and assists the passage of follow-on forces (if required). • Continues to improve security by conducting other necessary defensive actions. (These steps, outlined in Chapter 4 of this manual, include EA 3-138. Reorganization, normally conducted concurrently with consolidation, consists of actions taken to prepare for follow-on operations. As with consolidation, the platoon leader must plan and prepare for reorganization as he conducts his TLPs. He ensures the platoon is prepared to— • Reestablish chain of command. • Provide essential medical treatment and evacuate casualties as necessary. • Cross-level personnel and adjust task organization as required. • Conduct resupply operations, including rearming and refueling. • Redistribute ammunition. • Conduct required maintenance. armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/attp3_21x9.pdfSource is Stryker Platoon manual. Basic functions are the same, even 150 years later. First step is always security. Then you prepare for further combat. M - thanks for sharing. Was this standard procedure for the time or is this current procedure?
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Post by chris on Jan 21, 2015 18:20:04 GMT -6
I would say it would require two battalions, and to sustain yourself packs and escort. If George Custer wants to go to hell, he is sure as that same hell not going to drag me along with him. From what I have already seen, and the opinion formed can only be reinforced, not dispelled, by what any patrol can tell me, I am already deep in the swamp, and I have no intention of drowning in it. Moving forward was a grave error There are three principles involved here. The first one is common sense - Look before you leap. The second is tactical - Never, NEVER reinforce defeat. The third is my own - When you attempt to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, more often than not you get bitten rather badly. In hindsight your three points would be perfectly valid. On Reno Hill though I don't believe all apply. First one yes. Second and third, at the time, they did not know Custer had been defeated. All they knew was Custer was over the hill and they had an order to come. The attempt had to be made. Mr. Capone, "They" didn't have an order - Benteen did and it was superceded by Reno with his: "...halt your command..."
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 21, 2015 18:20:25 GMT -6
Scar, answer to your question is at the bottom of the post you cite.
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