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Post by quincannon on Feb 13, 2015 10:26:38 GMT -6
You can nitpick about the difference between blame and responsibility in the civilian world.
In the military world they can be and often are clearly defined differences. Responsibility rest only with the commander. Blame is the fault itself.
What you call nitpicking is our collective astonishment that you do not grasp this one basic fundamental of military life. You cannot go further into this subject until you do. It forms the basis of future understanding.
If you so desire, don't post, observe, or leave, until such a time as your are ready and equipped to understand the fundamentals, the not understanding of which can only cause you heartache and frustration in this company.
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 18:01:33 GMT -6
Responsibility is a much larger picture it includes good outcomes also. Blame is a narrow focus on an individual. You can blame Custer for his individual acts be he is responsible for the regiment. Regards AZ Ranger Semantics. Blaming him (yes, GAC individually) for the outcome of the entire day is the same as saying he (individually) is responsible. Blame is the placing of responsibility onto an individual for the outcome of an action or inaction by that individual that resulted in an undesirable outcome. Just so you can claim victory - I concede and withdraw my comment that Custer was to blame. GAC was not to blame, he was responsible for the disaster that was LBH. Perhaps this is one of the reasons so few post here. Arguing and nit picking over nothing just to get the last word. Mark, every profession has its own language and the words have specific meanings, it's not semantics. Custer is responsible for what happened at LBH, what he is to blame for is a matter of how you view the battle. Custer as commander is always responsible, but he can not be to blame for what others do. The same thing would go in reverse, he could have been responsible for a victory but if some one else displays superior ninja skills and saves the day, that person would get the praise. Also if Reno gave Hare an order, then Hare gave Benteen the order, then Benteen is under Reno's orders. When Benteen acted on those orders after speaking to Hare to tell his men to move back, everyone knows he is acting under orders. It doesn't matter if he refers to it as "I then recommended" or "I then ordered", everyone up and down the chain would know Benteen was acting on Reno's orders and like Benteen they would have to act like the order came from Reno. I'm going out on a limb here, someone let me know if I screw it up. If Weir and Benteen were standing on Weir Point without Hare message and Weir said. "I recommend we go forward" and Benteen responded with "I recommend we go back" Weir would be required to go back because Benteen is his superior. When you read Benteen's testimony, don't take the words so literal. Benteen is kind of a master at using dry wit, humor and underplay. At the time everyone at the testimony would have understand it because they had a commonality in language and knowledge but unfortunately we no longer share with them. It's kind of like trying to explain the jokes on "Laugh In" to a kid today, there is a lack of common knowledge and experience. Finally I really doubt that anyone who wants to be on these boards were chased away. People leave when they no longer find the board of personal value. Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 18:25:42 GMT -6
Semantics. Blaming him (yes, GAC individually) for the outcome of the entire day is the same as saying he (individually) is responsible. Blame is the placing of responsibility onto an individual for the outcome of an action or inaction by that individual that resulted in an undesirable outcome. Just so you can claim victory - I concede and withdraw my comment that Custer was to blame. GAC was not to blame, he was responsible for the disaster that was LBH. Perhaps this is one of the reasons so few post here. Arguing and nit picking over nothing just to get the last word. Mark, every profession has its own language and the words have specific meanings, it's not semantics. Custer is responsible for what happened at LBH, what he is to blame for is a matter of how you view the battle. Custer as commander is always responsible, but he can not be to blame for what others do. The same thing would go in reverse, he could have been responsible for a victory but if some one else displays superior ninja skills and saves the day, that person would get the praise. Also if Reno gave Hare an order, then Hare gave Benteen the order, then Benteen is under Reno's orders. When Benteen acted on those orders after speaking to Hare to tell his men to move back, everyone knows he is acting under orders. It doesn't matter if he refers to it as "I then recommended" or "I then ordered", everyone up and down the chain would know Benteen was acting on Reno's orders and like Benteen they would have to act like the order came from Reno. I'm going out on a limb here, someone let me know if I screw it up. If Weir and Benteen were standing on Weir Point without Hare message and Weir said. "I recommend we go forward" and Benteen responded with "I recommend we go back" Weir would be required to go back because Benteen is his superior. When you read Benteen's testimony, don't take the words so literal. Benteen is kind of a master at using dry wit, humor and underplay. At the time everyone at the testimony would have understand it because they had a commonality in language and knowledge but unfortunately we no longer share with them. It's kind of like trying to explain the jokes on "Laugh In" to a kid today, there is a lack of common knowledge and experience. Finally I really doubt that anyone who wants to be on these boards were chased away. People leave when they no longer find the board of personal value. Beth Beth, My point concerning the order was Reno did not give an order to Hare or to anyone concerning the retreat. Hare gave the order and used Reno's name. He then informed Reno of the order. That is a big difference.
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 19:05:04 GMT -6
Beth, My point concerning the order was Reno did not give an order to Hare or to anyone concerning the retreat. Hare gave the order and used Reno's name. He then informed Reno of the order. That is a big difference. If Hare gave the order in Reno's name it means that he got the message from Reno in the first place. Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 19:24:07 GMT -6
Yes, normally that is what would happen. However, in this case I don't believe it did. Hare made the call, based on the on-coming Indians and input from others. He then rode back and informed Reno. That's how I have read it. Maybe I have missed something.
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 19:49:56 GMT -6
Yes, normally that is what would happen. However, in this case I don't believe it did. Hare made the call, based on the on-coming Indians and input from others. He then rode back and informed Reno. That's how I have read it. Maybe I have missed something. Maybe. Sometimes with the RCOI they skip mentioning things because they were all military. Perhaps Hare doesn't say Reno gave me the order because everyone would know that the only way Hare could past the order on to Benteen would have meant that Reno gave it to him. If Reno didn't give Hare the order and Hare acted on his own, wouldn't that make Hare the only one totally responsible for Benteen and Weir from advancing towards Custer? Wouldn't he then have been held absolutely responsible at a time when they were looking for someone to blame? I've never been in the military but I do understand chain of command and Hare himself could not make that command and if he did it in Reno's name and Reno didn't give the command then Reno would have been defending himself Hare's mistake. What I don't know is if Reno could tell Hare, go out, look things over and if you think they shouldn't go forward then tell them I ordered them back. I don't know if that sort of order would ever be given though. Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 20:23:22 GMT -6
Yes, normally that is what would happen. However, in this case I don't believe it did. Hare made the call, based on the on-coming Indians and input from others. He then rode back and informed Reno. That's how I have read it. Maybe I have missed something. Maybe. Sometimes with the RCOI they skip mentioning things because they were all military. Perhaps Hare doesn't say Reno gave me the order because everyone would know that the only way Hare could past the order on to Benteen would have meant that Reno gave it to him. If Reno didn't give Hare the order and Hare acted on his own, wouldn't that make Hare the only one totally responsible for Benteen and Weir from advancing towards Custer? Wouldn't he then have been held absolutely responsible at a time when they were looking for someone to blame? I've never been in the military but I do understand chain of command and Hare himself could not make that command and if he did it in Reno's name and Reno didn't give the command then Reno would have been defending himself Hare's mistake. What I don't know is if Reno could tell Hare, go out, look things over and if you think they shouldn't go forward then tell them I ordered them back. I don't know if that sort of order would ever be given though. Beth I don't think this is something that was assumed or overlooked by the RCOI. Almost every other question was where was Reno or what did Reno order. If he clearly ordered the retreat it would have been noted. It is interesting to note the number of times officers testified that no order was given by Reno or they did not see Reno. Also it is clear that Weir and Benteen set off on their own. Benteen stated he ignored calls from Reno to return. Hare was sent after Weir to advise him to try to make contact with GAC.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 20:24:06 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 20:28:03 GMT -6
Maybe. Sometimes with the RCOI they skip mentioning things because they were all military. Perhaps Hare doesn't say Reno gave me the order because everyone would know that the only way Hare could past the order on to Benteen would have meant that Reno gave it to him. If Reno didn't give Hare the order and Hare acted on his own, wouldn't that make Hare the only one totally responsible for Benteen and Weir from advancing towards Custer? Wouldn't he then have been held absolutely responsible at a time when they were looking for someone to blame? I've never been in the military but I do understand chain of command and Hare himself could not make that command and if he did it in Reno's name and Reno didn't give the command then Reno would have been defending himself Hare's mistake. What I don't know is if Reno could tell Hare, go out, look things over and if you think they shouldn't go forward then tell them I ordered them back. I don't know if that sort of order would ever be given though. Beth I don't think this is something that was assumed or overlooked by the RCOI. Almost every other question was where was Reno or what did Reno order. If he clearly ordered the retreat it would have been noted. It is interesting to note the number of times officers testified that no order was given by Reno or they did not see Reno. Also it is clear that Weir and Benteen set off on their own. Benteen stated he ignored calls from Reno to return. Hare was sent after Weir to advise him to try to make contact with GAC. How much clearer does Reno have to make it for you? Here is the recorder's question and Reno's answer. Q. By whose command did the column move down the stream and return? A, By mine, both orders.
Godfrey gave you the answer that when there is movement you don't need to hear the order you go. There were no radios to give direct commands. As Beth cautioned you Benteen may have been enjoying this to much and though he knew what to he also did not hear Reno give the order. But he didn't need to hear it as Godfrey explained why. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 20:36:46 GMT -6
On that same page Reno states he told Benteen to take one half of the Reno/Benteen site and he would take the other. So Benteen was following Reno's order to direct the placement of those companies.
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 20:40:41 GMT -6
Thanks. I've been trying to find a searchable RCOI report online but failing. I know you can't take just one person's statement about an event and base what you think happened. You have to have the range of questions, answers and supporting testimony. Generally if something doesn't make sense, then you might not have all the information.
Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 20:58:58 GMT -6
I don't think this is something that was assumed or overlooked by the RCOI. Almost every other question was where was Reno or what did Reno order. If he clearly ordered the retreat it would have been noted. It is interesting to note the number of times officers testified that no order was given by Reno or they did not see Reno. Also it is clear that Weir and Benteen set off on their own. Benteen stated he ignored calls from Reno to return. Hare was sent after Weir to advise him to try to make contact with GAC. How much clearer does Reno have to make it for you? Here is the recorder's question and Reno's answer. Q. By whose command did the column move down the stream and return? A, By mine, both orders.
Godfrey gave you the answer that when there is movement you don't need to hear the order you go. There were no radios to give direct commands. As Beth cautioned you Benteen may have been enjoying this to much and though he knew what to he also did not hear Reno give the order. But he didn't need to hear it as Godfrey explained why. Regards AZ Ranger I don't take the word of the man who called for the inquiry to clear his name as evidence. His testimony contradicts the testimony of others. No one else corroborated his story of events.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 21:13:09 GMT -6
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Post by Beth on Feb 13, 2015 21:23:12 GMT -6
How much clearer does Reno have to make it for you? Here is the recorder's question and Reno's answer. Q. By whose command did the column move down the stream and return? A, By mine, both orders.
Godfrey gave you the answer that when there is movement you don't need to hear the order you go. There were no radios to give direct commands. As Beth cautioned you Benteen may have been enjoying this to much and though he knew what to he also did not hear Reno give the order. But he didn't need to hear it as Godfrey explained why. Regards AZ Ranger I don't take the word of the man who called for the inquiry to clear his name as evidence. His testimony contradicts the testimony of others. No one else corroborated his story of events. Seriously? Every action taken corraborates Reno's testimony. You know there is something perversely twisted about you that no matter how people walk you right through the evidence, you always fall back on the same "I can't believe Reno" bit. You remind me of trying to give my dog a bath, he is a happy camper until the very moment you turn on the hose and then he runs like a scared rabbit back to someplace safe. Why would a guilty man call a public inquiry to clear his name unless he was innocent? You are never going to learn everything people have to offer you, until you drop your preconcieved notions. If you don't want to drop your preconcieved notions, then why are you here? Beth
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2015 21:32:29 GMT -6
I don't take the word of the man who called for the inquiry to clear his name as evidence. His testimony contradicts the testimony of others. No one else corroborated his story of events. Seriously? Every action taken corraborates Reno's testimony. You know there is something perversely twisted about you that no matter how people walk you right through the evidence, you always fall back on the same "I can't believe Reno" bit. You remind me of trying to give my dog a bath, he is a happy camper until the very moment you turn on the hose and then he runs like a scared rabbit back to someplace safe. Why would a guilty man call a public inquiry to clear his name unless he was innocent? You are never going to learn everything people have to offer you, until you drop your preconcieved notions. If you don't want to drop your preconcieved notions, then why are you here? Beth No need for personal attacks Beth. Everything I have read, and some thoughts of members here, have led me to the conclusions I have. We just read it differently and see credibility in different areas.
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