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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 12:31:40 GMT -6
What battalion did LT Edgerly belong to? Who would you expect any orders issued to that battalion to originate from? Do you have any evidence that the battalion organization that existed prior to Benteen meeting Reno was dissolved? If you do you are the only one on God's green earth to have such knowledge.
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 14:45:58 GMT -6
The point is the man was entitled to express his opinion. What I took exception to was QC (follow up post further clarified his position) saying he should have kept his trap shut. Regardless of agendas, allegiances etc, based on his authority and knowledge he had ever right to give his opinion. It may well be gibberish, but he had the right. Same as Terry and Sheridan. Should they have kept their traps shut too since they weren't there? Not sure about the military but in State service you are not allowed to voice certain opinions both inside the agency or regarding elected officials. Regards AZ Ranger "I'm pretty sure that in the military expressing an opinion contray to elected officials can be a career killer." --MacAthur. "It can be a killer"--Rommel
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 14:57:28 GMT -6
Steve: Then let me assure you that within the military it is a chargeable offense to make a derogatory statement of opinion about the President of the United States, State Governors, Members of Congress, and a rather lengthy laundry list of other public officials, under UCMJ and the LBH contemporary Articles of War. There are limits placed upon your First Amendment rights when a member of the military. You may talk policy all you wish privately. You may speak on policy publicly when authorized to do so. What you may not do is defame. It really isn't just the military. Many a civilian has lost their job after trash talking their boss. Beth
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 15:15:30 GMT -6
Chaps, With all that went wrong on 25 June 1876, why are we wasting time discussing how the left wing, B and the mule train correctly ended up defending Reno Hill successfully until the arrival of Terry on 27 June 1876......? WO Good question. Evidently some people think that it was the key moment of the battle and are developing perceptional blindness. I have a question for them, if Reno had upon reaching the bluff top, immediately headed anyone who could move towards the guns they were hearing--sort of like the old tube fire escapes on schools where there would be a teacher pointing which way to go--what would have happened next? Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 15:56:58 GMT -6
Beth,
If 3 or 4 companies had written northwards towards GAC, the likelihood is they would have also been wiped out (if they didn't fall back quickly enough). What do you then think were the odds of the wounded, mule train, B Company and 2 or 3 more depleted companies on Reno Hill surviving until the 27th...?
WO
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 16:27:34 GMT -6
I know teacher. I know, says Springer Jones -----ZIP
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 16:33:01 GMT -6
Beth, If 3 or 4 companies had written northwards towards GAC, the likelihood is they would have also been wiped out (if they didn't fall back quickly enough). What do you then think were the odds of the wounded, mule train, B Company and 2 or 3 more depleted companies on Reno Hill surviving until the 27th...? WO Personally I don't think anyone could have survived moving beyond the shelter of Reno Hill that day, especially if they moved beyond Weir Point. As the companies moved out from the Hill, they would either have been slowed by the exhausted men and horses who had battled in the valley or would have been become spread out and been just a bunch of scattered men trying to defend themselves. Especially if they went towards Custer in piecemeal groups instead of waiting for everyone to arrive and form up again. The Indians who were engaging Custer would have just easily split part of their force to fight anyone coming from the south and still have had overwhelming numbers to handle both groups of the7th. The Indians still in the valley especially those from the south end probably would have moved up to the decreased forces protecting the wounded at Reno Hill and wiped them out then followed those who were able to leave Reno Hill down the battlefield as a sort of pincher movement, blocking any sort of retreat. Reno's men would have had to halt and form skirmish linse to fight, possibly two if Reno Hill has fallen. Forming a skirmish line puts an end to their mobility. They would have been forced to either decrease their fighting capability by 1/4 or get rid of the horses, possibly doing like Custer did, shooting them and using them for cover. Eventually the pressure of the battle would force them together to the point that they would probably be a roughly circle of men trying to defend each other's backs. At that point things would pretty much be over. Alternate endings: If the Indians from the south end of the village didn't come up after those left on Reno Hill, the Cavalry might have been able to retreat back to Reno Hill or off to the to the East but any attempt to escape would probably be futile, unless the Indians just got tired of the chase or felt they have proved their point and just let them go If they retreated back to Reno Hill though their forces would be so weakened that they wouldn't have been able to counter the attack the Indians made after defeating Custer and his men. Possible? Let me know.
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Feb 10, 2015 17:32:05 GMT -6
Beth, If 3 or 4 companies had written northwards towards GAC, the likelihood is they would have also been wiped out (if they didn't fall back quickly enough). What do you then think were the odds of the wounded, mule train, B Company and 2 or 3 more depleted companies on Reno Hill surviving until the 27th...? WO Very little chance.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 17:51:22 GMT -6
The key was that the remaining 7 companies, wounded and mule train concentrated at a defendable position and survived until nightfall on the 25th. The LBH could easily have been a full regimental wipe out on the 25th or 25th/26th.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 18:14:51 GMT -6
Beth, If 3 or 4 companies had written northwards towards GAC, the likelihood is they would have also been wiped out (if they didn't fall back quickly enough). What do you then think were the odds of the wounded, mule train, B Company and 2 or 3 more depleted companies on Reno Hill surviving until the 27th...? WO Note to self read question asked, not the one I want to answer. I don't think that they would have likely survived because they won't have had enough able people to defend the area once the Indian's moved from the north end towards them. The only chance they would have had was to put everything and everyone around the area they used for the hospital but because of the decreased numbers they wouldn't have been able to discouragre Indians climing up the bluff. Eventually they would have been over run and wiped out. Even if they had managed to make it through the night of the 25th, the Indians might not have decided that it was worth the cost to destroy what soldiers were left. Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 18:23:29 GMT -6
Beth,
If the "better part" of the left wing/B got wiped out on a futile effort to join the doomed right wing, it's pretty grim for what remained at Reno Hill. If they weren't overrun during the evening of the 25th, it was a rather different cost/benefit analysis on the morning of the 26th for the hostiles to what they were subjected to by facing all 7 concentrated companies on Reno Hill.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 18:50:10 GMT -6
Beth, If the "better part" of the left wing/B got wiped out on a futile effort to join the doomed right wing, it's pretty grim for what remained at Reno Hill. If they weren't overrun during the evening of the 25th, it was a rather different cost/benefit analysis on the morning of the 26th for the hostiles to what they were subjected to by facing all 7 concentrated companies on Reno Hill. WO I swear I don't know how that 'not' got slipped in there. Missed it when I was re organizing my thoughts. I've always thought that the only reason that anyone survived Reno Hill was more because the NA had gotten bored and tired, sort of like one feels after a really satifying game and viewed taking on Reno Hill with the force it would have needed was just too costly that night. Perhaps they thought they had time to return the next day and make a sport of it. The next day when they heard news that Terry was coming, it was a game changer and they decided to withdraw and survive for another day. Beth
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 10, 2015 19:46:11 GMT -6
Beth,
The remaining hours of daylight on the 25th was the critical period for the left wing. The hostiles were reacting to being attacked, Reno being repulsed, the right wing being wiped out, and were fired up. That was when the left wing had to concentrate on good ground and survive.
It was a different story by the 26th. The smoke had cleared, the death of GAC was known, the village was not under immediate threat from the left wing and news would arrive of Terry's approach from the north. Cost/benefit analysis. Would the large hostiles casualties involved in an all out attack and overrunning of Reno Hill be worth the end result....? No.
WO
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Post by Beth on Feb 10, 2015 20:39:35 GMT -6
Beth, The remaining hours of daylight on the 25th was the critical period for the left wing. The hostiles were reacting to being attacked, Reno being repulsed, the right wing being wiped out, and were fired up. That was when the left wing had to concentrate on good ground and survive. It was a different story by the 26th. The smoke had cleared, the death of GAC was known, the village was not under immediate threat from the left wing and news would arrive of Terry's approach from the north. Cost/benefit analysis. Would the large hostiles casualties involved in an all out attack and overrunning of Reno Hill be worth the end result....? No. WO I agree with you to the village as a whole with the benefit of wisdom and experience it makes sense to pack up and move on. I wouldn't be surprised if there were young members of the village were tempted to linger and take pot shots at Reno Hill, sort of a cat and mouse game. These young man probably knew that this was going to be the last summer to prove his bravery to his tribe. I wonder if there wasn't Terry hadn't been approaching, how long the village woulld have stayed in place and how long would there be action on the hill. Of course it's all hypothetical but without the pressure of Terry's approach the soldier on Reno Hill the Indians could stay in place until they used up of the grazing and hunting in the area. It would give them time to gather up stray horses and put in a little healing. Reno and his men were limited by ammo and access to water before they would have to decide to make their escape. Interesting but pointless speculation. Beth
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Post by quincannon on Feb 10, 2015 23:54:49 GMT -6
Beth: By the morning of the 26th there was no real reason to expend resources (lives and ammunition) in attacking anyone on Reno Hill. All they had to do was contain for 24-36 hours to allow the villages to depart and put some distance between themselves and what remained of the 7th Cavalry. Actually they were probably counting on 48 to 72 hours head start.
I want to drop back a bit earlier though. Springbutt Jones (the resident class clown at Fort B) gave you and WO a short answer ZIP (None whatsoever) chance of Benteen without Reno breaking through.
Reno was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. Once Benteen handed him that not, responsibility to go to Custer was transferred from B to R. Initially Reno is in no shape to move. Some measure of combat power is restored, but if he moves what does he do with his dismounts, his wounded, and those accursed packs? If he leaves them with some security say a company, he is looking at two self created problems - 1) there are still four or five hundred Indians nearby in the valley within easy striking distance of those reduced and hobbled numbers (ripe fruit), 2) He has reduced his available combat power by 20-25%.
His other option is to take them along. That is what he did, It was a movement as screwed up as Hogan's Goat. It was just a mess, and the only reason I can see to do that is out of some Victorian Era obligation to at least try.
I conclude this above, because trying to make contact or at least trying to find out what was going on could have been accomplished by other means.
That movement toward Weir was a tactical blunder of monumental importance in that it could have resulted in the demise of the entire regiment.
The only proper tactical solution for any commander in that situation, is to put patrols out, north and east, and everybody else dig in, say to hell with Custer, and prepare for what will probably be a very bumpy ride. Had those patrols seen what had happened to Custer, the regiment was consolidated and relatively safe. Had those patrols made contact with Custer, that decision to defend could then be revisited. For all Reno knows Custer could have beaten the snot out of those Indians
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