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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 18:22:12 GMT -6
... Keogh's postion not making sense especially where his body was found (Or am I mischaracterizing it). Do you think that Keogh started somewhere on higher ground so he could see Benteen approach and then had to redeploy to plug gaps as Indians start to approach through coulees and ravines? I know from your map that large number of the bodies are right at the head of the gap (which I believe should be named after Fred) was that because he kept throwing his resources into that area, or because they were taken by surprise? Here is what I believe, today. I think GAC told Keogh to "fortify" Calhoun Hill. A positional defense there is OK with me, providing horses were kept very close and the dismounted position was supported. It wasn't. I also believe Keogh watched as Harrington charged: a commander would. Somewhere in there, Keogh had to see that gap; had to see Indians coming up out of Deep Coulee, simply because he needed to be on the higher ground to watch what was going on, what was occurring. Any commander would do that. When I went there in 2007 and met my friends for the first time, "Max" Reeve (on Facebook: Michael Reeve, there) and Michael "Junior" Olson and I went all over that area trying to figure out why those makers were where they are and why they are so scattered. A defense of that gap would account for both situations as troops were forced back from their positions, then routed. To me, the gap explains the markers and I have never seen another explanation that makes sense!The sequence of fight was as follows: I Company along the northern ridge; C Company on the southern part of that ridge, its left flank on Calhoun Hill's northern extension; and L Company in two positions on Calhoun Hill. C Company moved first, into the coulee. There it was routed, some its troops making a break in the direction of the river (probably because that was the path of least resistance), but the majority of survivors breaking for Finley-Fickle/Calhoun Ridge off their left; onto that ridge, then up the ridge to Calhoun Hill. They broke across the hill, probably causing a more rapid disintegration of L Company; then into I Company, which was by now having issues of its own. I believe some writers claim as many as 20 refugees from the fighting managed to get to LSH, but I have found no evidence of that many. I believe 11 men from C - I - L were identified beyond Battle Ridge and into the Yates sector. No more. Those men were: C Company: Last Stand Hill: 2 1. PVT Y. Stungewitz 84 2. PVT W. Wright 81 L Company: Last Stand Hill: 4 1. PVT Pardee/Burke 76 2. PVT F. T. Hughes 107 3. PVT C. McCarthy 79 4. PVT T. Tweed 80 South Skirmish Line: 1 1. PVT W. Harrington 54 ... and I Company: Last Stand Hill: 4 1. PVT E. Driscoll 64 2. PVT A. McIlhargey 103 3. PVT J. Mitchell 66 4. PVT J. Parker 59 (The numbers after each name represent the markers I have assigned to each individual. Some are accurate; others are arbitrary.) Does this answer your question, above? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 18:23:49 GMT -6
I think so. What have I missed? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 18:28:36 GMT -6
I think so. What have I missed? Best wishes, Fred. Fred, as usual I wasn't clear. What I was asking was if you are sure no one noticed the bonus about the markers! (I did) Best, c.
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 18:30:43 GMT -6
Would you rather I take my questions to a different point on the timeline. No!F.
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 18:40:21 GMT -6
Would you rather I take my questions to a different point on the timeline. No!F. That was emphatic. Beth
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Post by Beth on Feb 11, 2015 18:45:33 GMT -6
... Keogh's postion not making sense especially where his body was found (Or am I mischaracterizing it). Do you think that Keogh started somewhere on higher ground so he could see Benteen approach and then had to redeploy to plug gaps as Indians start to approach through coulees and ravines? I know from your map that large number of the bodies are right at the head of the gap (which I believe should be named after Fred) was that because he kept throwing his resources into that area, or because they were taken by surprise? Does this answer your question, above? Best wishes, Fred. I'm going to have to go through the information later this evening when the house is quieter but I wanted to let you know I appreciate the information. Beth
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Post by fred on Feb 11, 2015 18:56:18 GMT -6
What I was asking was if you are sure no one noticed the bonus about the markers! (I did). And I guess I misunderstood you, too. What I was referring to was the maps, A - B - C and D, and the fact that if you total up all the crosses, they equal 210, plus, they are in the position I feel (strongly about) where they died. The crosses-- while not on top of one another like GAC's body-- indicate accurate ( ) placements. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on Feb 11, 2015 19:05:08 GMT -6
Yep, the same thing I was talking about - was discussing it earlier with Tom via phone. Best, c.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 11, 2015 20:05:27 GMT -6
As always I would recommend reading Fred's original post, and take it from there. Things have changed since that post: I wasn't aware of the gap until a couple years later and like Chuck very shrewdly pointed out, that was a game-changer. Also, I wasn't aware of the Harrington location either at that time. The book changes a number of things, including the comment about the "administrative" position. Best wishes, Fred. I am somewhat off the pace on this debate, having not yet had sight of Fred's book. Reading between the lines, the "gap" is presumably where Deep Ravine cut up into Battle Ridge and which might explain why I Company appeared to be positioned unhealthily northwards of L Company.....? If so, does anybody have any photos of this point and especially the view from the ridge line south of the junction? Thanks.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 11, 2015 20:20:44 GMT -6
I think GAC told Keogh to "fortify" Calhoun Hill. A positional defense there is OK with me, providing horses were kept very close and the dismounted position was supported. It wasn't. Fred, The Keogh sector along the southern end of Battle Ridge absolutely stinks at all tactical levels (number of defenders/length of perimeter/fields & arcs of long range fire/concealed infiltration points), but the one caveat is that we do not know what direct orders there were from GAC that restricted Keogh's operational freedom. All we know is that what should have been a temporary mobile fending operation went horribly wrong and the CIL companies long overstayed their safe welcome up there. WO
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 12, 2015 6:08:59 GMT -6
Good morning Justin, if you were in command and Custer ordered you to hold the area, would you still set up a defence on Calhoun hill? I was asking because as these three Companies were understrength would it be better to tighten up a little and pull all three into a smaller perimeter and try to hold the highest ground, the further away from that ford the better as far as I can see because small units like the ones fielded that day were compromised even further when you take out the horse holders, so if you then place them on features with huge gaps between them then they are going to succumb to being outflanked, isolated and cut off, I would have thought it would have been best to keep all three fairly tight with the horses close by and in the dead ground in Fred’s shot.
BTW: The position of 1st Sergeant Bobo’s body has always puzzled me as both his line sergeants (Finckle & Finley) were found with other C company men on FF-Ridge, does it seem strange to anyone else that he was found there along with the NCOs from L Company and around Keogh’s body? Looks like he was still mounted and made a break for it or he was with Keogh all along in some sort of capacity.
Ian.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 12, 2015 7:40:24 GMT -6
Ian,
(1) The Keogh battalion didn't have the strength to hold anything against what it ultimately faced. (2) I have no problem with initially fending from Calhoun Hill, awaiting Benteen. I need to consider further the implications of Deep Ravine infiltration and how it would flow into Battle Ridge. (3) The time that Harrington was sweeping off Battle Ridge was the time that Calhoun should have been mounting up and both withdrawing northwards - it was no longer feasible for Benteen or anybody else to join them against that hostile build-up. The right wing was on its own. (4) I wouldn't be too concerned by the location 1S Bobo, if his corpse was correctly identified. The entire C Company would not have succumbed at FFR. L Company would have wheeled to cover survivors heading for CH, with likely disastrous consequences for itself.
WO
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2015 8:32:09 GMT -6
I am somewhat off the pace on this debate, having not yet had sight of Fred's book. Reading between the lines, the "gap" is presumably where Deep Ravine cut up into Battle Ridge.... Justin, Here is a photo of the "gap" as it appears today. A couple pictures similar to this are in the book (actually, this may be one of them). As you can see, it is not very prominent today, merely a dip in the road. It is, however, directly above the headcut of Deep Ravine. I am sure the water run-off over the years brought that headcut to where it is today, some 50-100 yards closer to the ridge than it was in 1876. That is another significant thing people do not realize when assessing Custer's movements and actions when he reached Cemetery Ridge (after Ford D). In other words, the sending of Yates into the basin area made sense, while today, looking at the terrain, you would have good reason to question such a move. Hope this helps... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 12, 2015 9:05:12 GMT -6
Fred,
Many thanks. What was the proximity of the I Company corpse cluster in the swale in relation to the "gap" and the DR headcut?
WO
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Post by fred on Feb 12, 2015 9:21:50 GMT -6
What was the proximity of the I Company corpse cluster in the swale in relation to the "gap" and the DR headcut? Justin, Believe it or not, that is all in the book. Appendix A gives you all the place names and their variations, as well as distances from one place to another. Also, the crosses representing the markers on the map are pretty accurate, and those distances are all covered there. I'm sure robb/vben hasn't gotten that far... or simply doesn't care. There is a lot more information in the book than one sees at first glance. We have a tendency-- or at least I do-- to gloss over the appendices in certain books. In this one you shouldn't; at least not if you want the most out of it. Best wishes, Fred.
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