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Post by fred on Jul 14, 2011 20:15:27 GMT -6
Wild, my boy!
My thanks!
And for what it is worth, I believe there were plenty of warriors along with all those families. I have to account for all those guys some how! <g>
Thanks again,
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fuchs on Jul 15, 2011 1:21:46 GMT -6
And for what it is worth, I believe there were plenty of warriors along with all those families. I have to account for all those guys some how! <g> Just trying to throw my dreaded statistics in here for a lower bound estimate of those "warriors" intermixed with the "noncombatants": If we assume a total population of ~5000 people without the "single warriors from the agencies", than with about 10% of those numbers men/boys to old or to young to go out fighting and an assumed ~100 of those tied up in the defense of the Hunkpapa village would yield 400 "warriors" among the "civilians". IIRC from Wooden Leg, after if was getting clear that the thread to the families was contained, some of those peeled off and occupied good lookouts to watch the show and even participated in the final moments and of course the aftermath of the fight. Most people here would think the total population to be (much) higher, so you can adjust those numbers upwards as needed.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 15, 2011 3:51:13 GMT -6
I am sorry Fred, I think I need to visit the doctors myself, I meant there was 14 grave makers found on an area know as the western perimeter in between upper deep ravine and Calhoun ravine, looking at Grey's map, I don't know which Company these men could have belonged to. Regards and good health Ian.
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Post by shan on Jul 15, 2011 4:18:20 GMT -6
Wild,
I too favour the car crash theory, but I'm afraid that it is one that goes against that sacred icon that so many have a need to cling too, i.e. the little piles of 20-- maybe even 30 cartridge cases that were supposedly found under, or close to the dead on Calhoun Hill.
We all have a tendency to bend a particular theory or theories to suit our particular model of any event, be it a family row or the battle in question, but I have to say that this one: the idea that these accumulations were, and are, firm evidence of a long distance engagement that could have gone on for half an hour or more, have had a long shelf life, and have always seemed somewhat slight to me. How long does it take a make to fire off 20 shots? Come to that how long does it take a frightened man to fire off twenty shots? I'm sure there are those out there who have done the work, but if it was over an half hour period, { or even more as some would have it, }then one would have to think that there was plenty of time for a man to smoke his pipe in between those shots.
I've vacillated over the years, trying desperately to ignore the car crash feel to the Custer part of the battlefield in favour of a longer, more prolonged battle, but it just doesn't seem to fit what we see on the ground. The Myth of L companies almost relaxed stay on Calhoun hill may have arisen because the survivors desperately wanted that to be true. They couldn't get their heads round what they were seeing, so they invented a more prolonged fight with the command managing to execute various maneuvers right up until the last 5 minutes.
Which brings me to Finley ridge. Because a number of dead members of C company were found strung along it, we have to find some way to explain it, and as such, the current model is that they ended up there because an earlier move to clear out Calhoun Coulee had gone so disastrously wrong. It seems to fit the bill so well, I sometimes think we've all come accept this as being set in stone, especially as it seems to verify certain Indian statements which indicate that a mounted troop did indeed ride down from the ridge and drive them out of a coulee before Lame White Man finally rallied them; the veritable hinge on which the whole battle swung.
I'm not saying that this isn't what happened, it's just that I seem to remember that once upon a time it was accepted that this event had happened up at Deep Ravine, and that the mounted company had been E company.
Much as I'm wedded to Indian testimony I'm afraid we can't really trust it when it comes to trying to pin point locations as to where a particular event happened. The car crash, or the buffalo hunt seems a far more likely explanation for what we see on the ground, but if one is going to go by the book, then I suppose that it doesn't help explain why C troop was up there in the first place.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 15, 2011 6:01:17 GMT -6
Hi, I have been reading segments of Doug Scott's book and he says about the amount of cartridge's used by the Springfield Carbine were found at both Greasy Grass Ridge and Henryville, now this can be that the Indians were firing captured Cavalry weapons, or another theory is that these area's may have been another line of retreat for Custer's men, and they were fired as they moved, this only a theory like Scott said, but it dose leave another area to discuss. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jul 15, 2011 13:24:01 GMT -6
Alright... as usual, I have opened my big fat mouth a little too wide.
It appears I am absolutely fine, though the final test results are not back yet. For those of you who know what this means, I flunked three straight PSA tests so my urologist told me he wanted to take a biopsy. On Wednesday he snipped away... something like 12 samples. Other than a little grogginess from the anesthesia-- I guess-- and maybe the anti-biotics, I feel fine, though exhausted. This stuff doesn't run in my family... too much... and other than a love of fine wine, good beer, and Johnny Walker Black, my vices are limited to oogling at a gorgeous wife (just ask Diane). I have never smoked, am hardly overweight (148 on a 5-11 frame is not too heavy), go for walks in the park, hike... and except for a Catholic school/army mouth, lead a clean life.
I am touched by the kind words here and "abroad"-- yes, I check out the other board once in a while, mainly to read "rch," montrose, brittles, benteen, and benteeneast-- so I thank all of you.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by markland on Jul 15, 2011 15:48:15 GMT -6
Alright... as usual, I have opened my big fat mouth a little too wide. It appears I am absolutely fine, though the final test results are not back yet. For those of you who know what this means, I flunked three straight PSA tests so my urologist told me he wanted to take a biopsy. On Wednesday he snipped away... something like 12 samples. Other than a little grogginess from the anesthesia-- I guess-- and maybe the anti-biotics, I feel fine, though exhausted. This stuff doesn't run in my family... too much... and other than a love of fine wine, good beer, and Johnny Walker Black, my vices are limited to oogling at a gorgeous wife (just ask Diane). I have never smoked, am hardly overweight (148 on a 5-11 frame is not too heavy), go for walks in the park, hike... and except for a Catholic school/army mouth, lead a clean life. I am touched by the kind words here and "abroad"-- yes, I check out the other board once in a while, mainly to read "rch," montrose, brittles, benteen, and benteeneast-- so I thank all of you. Best wishes, Fred. Dammit, foiled again. <smooch> Billy
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Post by wild on Jul 15, 2011 16:34:39 GMT -6
Shan Your post has advanced the cause of the car wreck a hundred fold and increased the car wreck numbers by at least 25% and perhaps has inspired other closet wreckers to come out. If a solution can be found in the simplex why search the complex? Regards
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Post by benteen on Jul 15, 2011 16:49:28 GMT -6
[quote author=fred board=chron thread=2865 post=73236 time=1310757841 and except for a Catholic school/army mouth, lead a clean life. Best wishes, Fred.[/quote] Fred, Way to go Capt. Made my day. But don't give me this lead a clean life stuff as if its by choice. At our age we cant get into trouble (Darn it) Be Well, more important stay well my friend Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jul 15, 2011 17:48:35 GMT -6
Dan: Who in hell says we can't------------------------Colonel Brittles
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Post by benteen on Jul 15, 2011 19:15:38 GMT -6
Col Brittles,
OK sir, I stand corrected <G> Sorry about the demotion, no disrespect intended Nathan. I forgot they promoted you to Colonel (In charge of scouts I believe)
Be Well Colonel Dan
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Post by quincannon on Jul 15, 2011 19:40:44 GMT -6
Among other things. I will let you decide what is real and what is from the pen of Bellah.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 16, 2011 9:04:47 GMT -6
10-4 on that Chuck
Good news Fred
Steve
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Post by fred on Jul 16, 2011 10:00:21 GMT -6
Thanks, Steve. Greatly appreciated... indeed, Old Trooper.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 18, 2011 4:25:45 GMT -6
All the stories indicate to a lot of firing on the Calhoun position, and after that the evidence from various digs, says that the amount of cartridge cases found were quite small, is it after the Calhoun position fell that the Indian account say that the Battle was over quickly, and the Indians just overwhelmed the Troopers in one foul swoop, and they just had no time to re-organize and fire back in any way other then the odd shot, when I hear about volleys being fired, I think this must have been a signal, firing volleys individuals wont work, it must be a fire At will scenario, with the Indians popping up and moving as like skirmishers. Regards Ian.
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