|
Post by fred on Nov 15, 2007 20:24:27 GMT -6
From here on out, I am only going to set the stage with a possible scenario. You are certainly free to add your own or refute mine.Custer reunited his command, either on the heights of Blummer's/(Nye)-Cartwringt Ridge on here, on Calhoun Hill. It is generally believed-- by the way bodies were found-- that he dropped off Keogh's battalion of C, I, and L companies... ... and then took Yates with E and F and moved farther north to look for a suitable river crossing. Keogh dismounted his men and positioned LT Calhoun's L Company on the high ground overlooking the ridges and ford to the west. [This picture is of the ridges Keogh's command just left and in the distance you can see the Weir complex.][Ford B and the Deep Coulee flood plain taken from Calhoun Hill.]Calhoun's horses were kept in a small, shallow swale-type area just to his rear... [This is another picture of the swale, only this time you are looking well into the lower part of Battle Ridge where Koegh's command was later found.]C Company-- probably under the command of LT Henry Harrington-- was moved behind L, overlooking a coulee that split two ridges. The company faced west toward the river and on-coming Indians. [This is Calhoun Coulee, taken from the northern-most end of Calhoun Hill. Finley Ridge is to the left.]Keogh's own command-- Company I-- was probably positioned along what we now call Battle Ridge, his horse farther down the slope in their own small depression... [This view looks back up to Calhoun Hill, on the right. Keogh's horses were probably kept in this area, in the depression in the middle.]They waited... Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Nov 19, 2007 6:08:50 GMT -6
[Drawn primarily from the work of Richard Fox .]
√ From Calhoun Hill, everyone can see exactly what is happening in the valley. • Meandering river and floodplain vegetation precluded long-distance views, i.e., activity, fords, even size of village. • Fox: historical themes—as opposed to archaeological—tend to severely restrict battalion mobility before annihilation; archaeological evidence contradicts that theory and shows cavalry had considerable mobility for some time and exercised this advantage freely.
√ The Company F advance scouts probably reported back at this time, informing Custer, there was no one to the east, no danger there. [N.B.-- There is anecdotal evidence that Custer had ordered Yates to send an advance party from his company forward. This makes sense, especially in light of the fact the Crow scouts had long since departed.]
√ Custer determined to again use the strategy employed in MTC and the left wing struck out even farther toward the north.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 13, 2011 5:25:02 GMT -6
Hi Fred, looking at what you have posted here, do you think that Calhoun hill or ridge would have been a better choice for a defensive action, if the whole of Custer's Battalion of five Companies would have been employed, placing them in mutual support of each other and wait for Benteen, it looks a better area of defense then Custer hill or ridge, I know that Benteen didn't show and the out come would have been the same, but do you think that a defense here would have been a bigger battle, lasting much longer. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 14, 2011 7:32:22 GMT -6
Ian—
Sorry for getting back to you so late, but I have been extremely busy of late.
As far as I am concerned none of those heights were good defensive areas. Just because you are on the high ground doesn’t mean that high ground is either good for defense or defensible. Calhoun Hill, Battle Ridge, etc., had too many hidden routes that allowed Indians to get too close. The small ravines and defiles, along with the deeper coulees like Deep Coulee provided very good entry to close – in attacks that favored the Indian method of fighting and largely negated the army’s carbine advantage. Calhoun Coulee was a perfect example. The warriors got close enough to launch arrows and threaten the troops and their horses along Battle Ridge. Deep Coulee allowed Indians to keep troops on Calhoun Hill busy and it provided them with a means of getting to the east of Calhoun. Deep Ravine provided the access and means of completing the surrounding of the troops.
Some idiots even think Finley – Finckle Ridge was occupied as a defensive position, but this shows a complete lack of any knowledge of basic tactics, and it Custer or anyone else ordered it occupied, they deserved exactly what they got. It was the worst position on the entire battlefield, other than maybe the so-called “South Skirmish Line.”
In order to defend properly—whether it be woods or heights—the defending force must have good fields of fire; the defenders must be able to overlap their fire and ideally the attacker must be channeled into a specific route if possible. Even though Reno Hill was not as pronounced a height as Calhoun Hill, the warriors had no means of getting that close to the defenders because of the distances involved and because the terrain was not as suitable in that area as it was on the Custer fields to creeping that close. That is the primary reason Benteen didn’t want to hold Weir Peaks. He recognized this right away.
Another point is that while the troops were surrounded on Reno Hill, in reality, the west side of their position was the bluffs and no real concerted attack would come from that direction, meaning it did not have to be that closely defended. This is all borne out by the fact that when the Indians had finished with Custer, they were—for the first time in the entire battle—united, yet they failed to dislocate Reno’s command.
Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 14, 2011 8:34:42 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, you must be a busy man these days with work and the book, so its nice to hear from you. Just a couple of points, Was the south skirmish line ever defended in this way ?, I know that grave markers are found there, about 14 I think, but I don't know which Company was stationed there. Reno hill, did the Indians ever go back in strength to try and dislodge the Troopers after they finished with Custer, or was it a delaying action so that the village could get away. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 14, 2011 8:54:59 GMT -6
Ian: The SSL was Company E, and there is a lot of conjecture as to why it is laid out as it is presently shown. I think everyone may have a slightly different answer.
Reno's hill was defended for what amounted to a full day plus, from the evening of the 25 until the 27. Most of this was a long range firefight with some efforts to infiltrate. The terrain is quite open allowing the Army to make a maximum effective use of firepower. The position was integrated for all around defense, and that was sufficient to keep the hostiles at bay. If they thought they could have taken it they probably would have tried in my view, but they opted instead to keep the Army pinned for sufficient time to enable the village to decamp.
I think Fred is probably at work now, so I have presumed to answer for him, because I know your time here is limited also.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 14, 2011 9:09:15 GMT -6
Thanks Chuck, I will have to leave the forum now till tomorrow, one last question before I go, which of Keogh's Wing stayed mounted, as support, for the other two in skirmish. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 14, 2011 9:24:56 GMT -6
Ian: Most probably Company I (Keogh's own) remained mounted. I would suspect that Company C did also, until they moved forward to FF Ridge, where they dismounted. Company I, while in reserve was in a somewhat sheltered position, and there would probably have been no reason to dismount until they were about to be overun. Company C I think would depend on how much fire they were receiving from the west. There are just some things that cannot be determined for certain, so we can only hazzard a guess based upon common sense.
|
|
|
Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 14, 2011 9:33:08 GMT -6
Just caught you Chuck, I was going to log off, Thanks for the reply, about Keogh's Company I, Keogh was mounted as was most officers, and he received a bullet through the knee and died with his men all round him, did the other two Officers in that wing: Calhoun and Crittenden, I wonder if they also fought on foot with there Troopers or were caught trying to rally there men for the final Indian onslaught. Regards Ian.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 14, 2011 9:41:50 GMT -6
Calhoun and Crittenden were most probably on foot, facing as they were a great deal of incoming fire from "Henryville" . The Calhoun Hill position is not that big as to require them to be mounted for C & C purposes, that and the fact there were two officers there.
|
|
|
Post by fred on Jul 14, 2011 10:42:38 GMT -6
I think Fred is probably at work now, so I have presumed to answer for him, because I know your time here is limited also. Actually, "fred" took the day off after undergoing a small medical procedure yesterday to determine whether or not he will continue living a while longer. At my age, any visit to the doc could be the final determinant. The good news is that I saw the sun rise on this new day. In other words, I am "cooping" it today. There is no "presumption" in anything I have seen you do, quincannon, and we are in agreement here, as well. One thing about the South Skirmish Line (SSL)... I believe those were primarily E Company bodies found there (along with Mitch Boyer), and while I suspect several of the reported 14 were actually killed there, the narratives of several troopers who attempted to haul bodies out of Deep Coulee tell us that the bodies were virtually impossible to remove from the ravine because they were so decomposed that the skin was coming loose as men tried hauling them out. I suspect, therefore, that those who were successfully hauled up to the SSL were buried where they were hauled to, while the remained merely had dirt throw upon them and remained in the ravine. The markers throughout much of the battlefield confuse things and as several of us have pointed out, should not be used as definitive proof of where men died. Some may, not all. Of course, all this leads me to another of my pet theories and that is that E Company was sent there with a purpose. Best wishes, Fred.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jul 14, 2011 16:15:40 GMT -6
Hi Cathal Company I, while in reserve was in a somewhat sheltered position, A reserve would suggest Keogh's battalion could hold back 40 muskets from engaging an Indian attack? Keogh and I company never got to perform the function of a reserve but were over run on the reverse slope of Battle Ridge. Keogh never got to engage the Indians approaching the Calhoun position. All the missions suggested by those who see Custer tactically operational beyond MTC failed.The recce resulted in Custer failing to reunite with Keogh.Calhoun failed to hold his position and Keogh's reserve failed to engage the advancing Indians or support Calhoun. All points to a rout to me.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 14, 2011 16:54:16 GMT -6
Richard: You and I are mostly in agreement here. In fact the only real difference I believe we have is time. My answer was based upon what they seemed to have planned to do as portrayed by the relative positions one to another. You are correct that Keogh did not support Company L with I and the only reason for that in my view is that he had more than he could handle from other quarters at the same time Company L was folding. The thing that has always troubled me is Company C on FF Ridge. I suppose conventional wisdom has it that they were sent down by Keogh or someone to clear that place. It has always seemed a fools errand to me. The other Keogh insists that they went there to provide enfilading fire into Henryville and as a response to seeing Weir up on the hill. That too seems like scenario building for perverse pleasure, and I think by the time Weir got there C was dead, still warm but dead nonetheless, as was Custer with the possible exception of a few holdouts. So if you are correct, and my suspicions are even halfway valid there must be another reason for C to be on FF Ridge. Just don't know.
|
|
|
Post by wild on Jul 14, 2011 17:51:54 GMT -6
Cathal, You know my position well by now. I see a crash with the component parts scattered hither and thither.It is the crash which scattered the parts not tactical positioning. I also think that the state of the village was nowhere as neatly divided as is suggested---noncoms to the North warriors to the South----maybe tomorrow too late now. Best wishes
And regards to Fred.Brave doctor,hope he got his love finger back.
|
|
|
Post by quincannon on Jul 14, 2011 18:34:09 GMT -6
Richard: Yes, I think I do maybe, but I can't seem to build a picture of the flow in my mind. In other words what was the initiator that exploded things as you would say - all over the parish? Where they were found has indications of some bit of order, but that order could be where they were forced to stop as opposed to stopping on their own.
You of course are not alone in your theory, and you will recall my reluctance to accept it. I am swinging more to fast than slow these days.
|
|