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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 29, 2011 9:00:50 GMT -6
Quincannon, they must of had many distractions that hot day, I have not been under fire or having hostiles moving quickly in my direction with the intention of killing me, so you are right about not having a say in the matter. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jun 29, 2011 20:10:11 GMT -6
... there is one point that Keogh makes that I agree with, although the evidence is far from locked in concrete. Keogh theorizes that the order of battle for Custer going forward from Point 3411 was Hqs and E, with C and F forming one squadron under Yates, and I and L forming another squadron under Keogh. He goes on to speculate that only Hqs and E went to the ford, while the others remained in support. Once Hqs and E came back, Custer changed task organization taking F along with him and E further north (thereby in effect forming a new squadron, but still under Yates) and detached C to Keogh's I and L., leaving them on Calhoun Hill. Keogh cites as evidence that the lineup I first outlined here is how they operated before during the campaign. Sorry gentlemen, but "keogh's" musings are as ridiculous as most of the convoluted speculation he flings against the wall. Some, of course-- like its fecal cousin-- sticks. This doesn't. It is a typical "keogh" compromise that is constructed to please as many people as possible and ignoring all the pertinent narratives and testimony. Historical compromise isn't truth and the idea of organizational maneuverings at this stage of the event is as ludicrous as can be. Oddly, the battalion breakdown, while one of the simplest things to determine, is constantly misconstrued. In "keogh's" case, it is just another example of his miasmic ruminations, another pet theory like a noodle pounded in his beach sand with a plastic shovel; half-baked and soon to be washed away by the forces of reality. The correct battalion breakdown was Keogh with C, I, and L; and Yates with E and F. Custer and the HQ contingent was with Yates for the entire duration. The proof of this is simple. On June 22, Custer did away with the battalion structure established when leaving FAL. He re-established battalions when the regiment crossed the Rosebud - LBH divide at noon on June 25. While similar to the FAL structure, these new assignments were different. George Custer was a stickler for protocol. The "coloring" of horses was a prime example. His officers' call of June 22 was another. In that meeting Custer admonished his officers for speaking out of the chain of command because he found out that someone (probably Myles Keogh) had gone to Terry about regimental business. Understanding of that ire was further demonstrated by Benteen's insistence upon asking Cooke to tell Custer about the idea of changing the pack escort formation along the Rosebud. Cooke's refusal to tell Custer speaks volumes. From the simple method of protocol, tasks were assigned. Reno-- the senior officer-- was given three companies and a primary mission. Notice, Reno rode alone. Benteen, as the next senior officer, was also given three companies, a primary mission, and he too rode alone. The remaining five companies (McDougall's "B" was assigned to escort the packs) were split between Keogh and Yates, and Keogh as the senior of the two captains, was given three of those five, obviously "I" being one of them. That leaves only C, E, and L in question. We also know of the 3/2 split because of Miles Moylan's testimony at the RCOI: Q: “State if you knew at the time or as it appeared to you afterward, what officers were placed in command of these different battalions and how many there were.”
Moylan: “I know nothing personally of it myself. I afterward ascertained that Major Reno had a battalion, Captain Benteen had one, Captain Keogh had one, and Captain Yates had one. Each of these battalions I have named consisted of three companies, except Captain Yates’ which was two companies. Captain McDougall being absent with the pack train accounted for the other.”C Company sergeant, Daniel A. Kanipe, and B Company first sergeant, James Hill, claimed Company C was assigned to Keogh. This would fulfill the protocol requirement, never something to be minimized when it came to military etiquette. Lieutenant Edgerly would agree. In a letter to his wife, Grace, dated July 4, 1876, from the Yellowstone Depot, Edgerly wrote that Custer “gave Keogh command strictly in accordance with his rank on the morning of the fight.” We know also from Indian narratives that the Gray Horse Troop (Company E) was at Ford B, and in addition to this we know that PVT William Brown of F Company lost control of his horse as it bolted forward and into the LBH at Ford B, crossing to the side of the hostiles. Here is a little something that can be found in a new book, one that has not hit the "stands" quite yet, but is due out any day now: Brown, PVT William A. — b. Hamburg, Germany, 1842 – d. 25 Jun 1876, killed at the Little Big Horn. Company F, private. Blue eyes, brown hair, fair complexion; 5’ 5” tall. Second enlistment 10 Dec 1872. Body found on west side of LBH, near mouth of MTC. Could he have been the one whose horse bolted across river and into Indian camp? Liddic says his body was found 250 yards across the river from the Deep Coulee crossing (Ford B) [ Vanishing Victory, p. 164]. See SGT Ogden (E). PVT James M. Rooney (F) identified Brown’s body in the village, in all likelihood making Brown the trooper whose horse bolted as Custer and Yates approached Ford B [Hardorff, On the LBH With Walter Camp, p. 13, FN 2]. Listed number 99 in “June Returns, Alterations… Killed in action.” That means F Company was at the ford as well as E, and if E and F were there, Yates was there. In addition, there is evidence that TMP Dose (K Company) was killed near Ford B. While Richard Hardorff claimed Dose's body was found near Deep Ravine ford, this is highly unlikely, for no soldier got that far from LSH. It is probable that Dose was found near Deep Coulee ford (Ford B). This is supported by Benteen's statements about finding a wounded gray horse near Ford B (trumpeters rode gray horses). No E Company men were lost at that ford and Dose's presence there would indicate that Custer and HQ were there as well (Dose was one of Custer's orderlies that day). All of this is supported by the placement of the bodies along the Custer section of the battlefield. It is absolutely clear that E and F all died together (for the most part), within their own individual units, and contiguous. Likewise, L and I (for the vast majority of their men). C Company were the only bodies identified in Calhoun Coulee, Finley - Finckle Ridge, the Keogh Sector, and Last Stand Hill, indicating movement. That movement would have emanated from Battle Ridge, and as we already know from SGT Kanipe and First Sergeant Hill, "C" rode with Keogh... not from cedar Coulee north; not from MTC north; not from anyplace else, but from the divide. I reject as well, the use of C Company "platoons" simply because there is no mention of it by anyone, nor is there the slightest hint of any evidence for such a formation. Also, body placement would not support it either. If "C" had been split between Keogh and Yates, there would have been more than just the two or three men found on Last Stand Hill and fewer men found on FFR and in the Keogh Sector. Rini's silly little conjectures are just more of the diversionary drivel he uses to support nonsensical theories he yanks out of temporal and spatial context and driven by his delusions of military and tactical expertise. My God, at least use some semblance of evidence as support especially since there is so much evidence to the contrary. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 29, 2011 21:22:22 GMT -6
Well Fred I guess that particular bit of fecal matter stuck against my barn door. However you make a solid case as a counterargument, and I just looked outside and that matter seems to be sliding ever closer to the prairie as we speak, much like the rest of what that bilous paltroon has to say. I suppose it goes to prove that you can dress up like a man but that does not make you one, and sometimes yellow stripes find their way from the leg of a garment to smack in the middle of the back.
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2011 4:53:09 GMT -6
Well Fred I guess that particular bit of fecal matter stuck against my barn door. Queeny, Negative! It must have been a passing eagle. Absolutely none of that was directed at you. Not even close! My opinions have been swayed back and forth too many times for me to criticize someone for accepting the reasonableness of another's arguments. It isn't his conclusions I take issue with; it is his manner of getting there. He excludes all the relevant "evidence" just to arrive at some pet theory. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 30, 2011 7:12:53 GMT -6
Fred: No, it did stick at the time, but times change. I evaluated what you said, and changed my mind based upon that. Never for a moment did I think anything was directed at me. I know good and well who you were directing it at - "Mister Dress Up I Am A Cavalryman And You Will Believe My Opinions Becase I Know Everything About Everything". That is who it was addressed to, as was my last comment.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 30, 2011 9:30:56 GMT -6
I don't pretend to know the amount of data you guys do, thats why I joined up because I want to learn, maybe I do act a little dumb over some subjects, but I am sure I read that Keogh had three Companies under his command, this is when Custer went down to the river, he put two into skirmish lines and kept the last one mounted, these lines were over run and the survivors ended up on Custer's hill, Keogh was shot through the knee and his men rallied round him and many died there, with there Co, am I close with these assumptions. Regards Ian.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Jun 30, 2011 10:28:15 GMT -6
You're as dead on as anyone.
At the time people start stating that Capt. Keogh and/or Custer did this or that or thought this or that or Company E formed a skirmish line of 56.7 feet during which they fired four volleys, you can stand up with full assurance of approval of the Gods and scream "Horsehockey!"
Nobody, but nobody knows what happened beyond MTC for Custer. People quote Indian accounts as if they are sure, or as we laughingly call them, testimony. There is NO Indian testimony. Indians are no less truthful than anyone, but these are not even Indian accounts. If we had recordings of what they said, that would be one thing, but of course, we do not.
They're only what we are told are Indian accounts, rarely the account from the source itself. People inexperienced with Indian languages (virtually 100% of news reporters back then and maybe 99% of soldiers) were known to provide 'helpful' aide to fill out the stories and apply them to currently flogged tale some white guy put together of what surely happened.
Nobody knows. Nobody CAN know. It's Fan Fiction every bit as much as Star Trek novels written by, well, fans. There is evidence that can be said not to conflict with a theory, but that's as far as the evidence can go. There are some theories far more likely than others, but they're only theories, a euphemism for utter guess.
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Post by wild on Jun 30, 2011 14:22:19 GMT -6
Is it a not strange that with all the maneuverings that the 3 anchor points of the regiment, Custer ,Keogh,Calhoun all lie along the axis of advance of the regiment?
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Post by fred on Jun 30, 2011 20:45:08 GMT -6
... I joined up because I want to learn, maybe I do act a little dumb over some subjects, but I am sure I read that Keogh had three Companies under his command, this is when Custer went down to the river, he put two into skirmish lines and kept the last one mounted, these lines were over run and the survivors ended up on Custer's hill, Keogh was shot through the knee and his men rallied round him and many died there, with there Co, am I close with these assumptions. First of all, Ian, no one here considers you dumb and I am sure everyone is anxious to answer your questions and address your various issues. It is fellows like you that keep jerks like me on these boards. That scenario you presented above was obviously written by some author theorizing about the battle and-- to me-- bears no semblance to reality. At least the reality I have been able to piece together, a reality that is entirely my own, a reality developed from the archaeological work done on the battlefield; the narratives of Indians, such as they are (and Dark Cloud brings up very cogent issues with these narratives, issues that must be considered); and my own personal military experience as to what I believe soldiers are like and how they function within their own structured commands. In my opinion, Custer went to Ford B, not with the intention of crossing or attacking, but with the sole idea of getting closer to the camp to get a better idea of what was going on. He, Yates, and Keogh arrived on Luce Ridge and saw a great deal, much more than they saw at 3,411. The problem, however, was that Luce Ridge was still a mile away, they couldn't quite see the full extent of the village (though they could see that it extended below the ford), the valley was choked with dust from the fleeing families, and Custer had no idea had far those families had already fled or where they were going. Their escape ruined the entire campaign. I believe he ruled out an attack across Ford B because he had too few troops for the size of the village, but primarily because an attack there would have put him in the middle (or close to it), rather than an end. Attacking in the middle had several serious tactical issues: (1) do you turn left or do you turn right?; (2) do you split your force left and right?; (3) how deep is the ford? (Depth determines speed...); (4) if the area he attacks is empty, he is dissipating his momentum and subjecting his force to a counter-attack (as an aside, this was a major tactical concept of the Germans: always counter-attack). All of this was decided on Luce Ridge and in my opinion it was also where and when Custer found out about Reno's retreat. Reno's retreat necessitated even greater speed, though I believe Custer figured that was just a minor set-back, just an annoying pinprick. When Custer was finished at the ford, he met Keogh on Calhoun Ridge and continued on to locate the information he needed. Keogh stayed back for three reasons: (1) to protect Custer's rear from Indians in MTC and crossing at Ford B; (2) as a reserve; and (3) to await Benteen's arrival. Keogh set up Calhoun on the hilltop (and Calhoun established skirmish lines, the only ones anybody in Keogh's command set up); he set up C Company from the north end of Calhoun Hill along the crest of Battle Ridge; and he held I Company in reserve (at the time, there was no need to deploy "I" simply because there was no immediate threat; after all, there were probably only 25 to 30 Indians opposing Custer at Ford B... a mere pinprick). The ultimate threat took time to develop. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 4:03:24 GMT -6
I take on board all you said Gentlemen, some great points there Fred, there is one question that sticks in my mind, and I don't know if there can be a clear answer for it because all the Troopers there were killed, and as you all say, you have to go on Indian reports, What forced Custer to retreat back up to were is now LSH, did he fall back in good order, when he seen what he was up against ?, or was he forced back by copious amounts of Indians, did his two Companies ever form any defense/skirmish lines, in total there must have been about 85+ men in total (HQ, Coy F & E) and if my data is right (don't quote me now) there were about 30 bodies found on LSH, and these include Troopers from the other Companies, so I guess that Custer's Wing must have seen some hot action. Regards Ian.
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Post by fred on Jul 1, 2011 5:10:03 GMT -6
... there is one question that sticks in my mind.... What forced Custer to retreat back up to were is now LSH, did he fall back in good order, when he seen what he was up against?... Ian, From everything I have read and studied-- and that includes DC's bug-a-boo... but what else have we if it fits in with common sense?-- Custer reached Ford D (under no pressure), and left there the same way, though more furious Indians now crossed that ford tailing after him. He reached Cemetery Ridge and paused for several minutes, waiting for Keogh and Benteen. Pressure began mounting from every direction, including the north (more and more Indians crossing at "D") and across Deep Ravine ford as well. I figure the pressure became so great, Custer was forced up the Cemetery Ridge heights and onto LSH. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 5:17:37 GMT -6
Thanks Fred, was there any skirmish line formed on Cemetary Ridge, or did the Troopers stay mounted. Regards Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jul 1, 2011 8:56:51 GMT -6
Ian: Fred is most likely off to work, so I wll take the opportunity to answer with what I believe happened. What Fred has already related is probably as near to the truth as we are going to get. At Ford D the bulk probably remained mounted with a few perhaps dismounting for various reasons, most of them in all likelyhood administrative, adjusting saddles and the like.
When pressure started to mount from Ford D and DR Ford, they probably remained mounted to facilitate withdrawl. I envision this pressure mounting fairly quickly but not to imply masses of hostiles in overwheming numbers, just numbers that continued to grow as the troopers started to withdraw over Cemetery Ridge and back in a southeast direction.
It is unclear to me if Company F went to Ford D along with Hqs and E. Had they not, the most logical place for them to be I think would be in the vacinity of LSH. I would think if they did remain, they also would have stayed mounted.
At some point as everyone was heading toward LSH they all dismounted. The so called South Skirmish line which extends down Cemetery Ravine, looks very much like a dismounted skirmish line if you look at how the markers are placed and believe their location to be a reasonable representation of where soldiers fell. You could probably look at it a couple of other ways also.
The gaggle at LSH was obviously a dismounted fight. Not much question about that. By the time the reached that high point on the north end of Battle Ridge they were burnt toast. Not only were the hostiles to the north and west closing in on them, but they were also coming up from the south after finishing off Keogh and company. In all likehood some had worked themselves around to the east of LSH too. That seems only logical.
So with this long preamble the answer to you last question I believe is a definate maybe. We can assume that Custer was somewhere near Sharrow and Kellogg when they were killed. It is a good way up the hill from that point to where Custer was found. That leads me to believe that at least the Hqs was mounted. That is why I suggested to you before you get that pictomap I mentioned. You can see most of the markers on the map and it gives you a fairly good clue as to how they were deployed in death, and you can move backward with your speculations as to how they got there.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 9:18:36 GMT -6
Thanks Quincannon, why I keep asking this question is (and I know there is no definite answer) Between Cemetery Ridge and Last Stand Hill, for the HQ and the two Companies with it to suffer about 80% casualties, if they were still mounted and moving, seems a little high, I thinks for the Indians to shoot so many Troopers at a distance whist moving, makes them excellent shots, getting down to brass tacks, I not sure how many made it to LSH, but if could have not been many, if they say that there were only 30 bodies found, and some of these were from Keogh's lot, I wish I could have kept this short Quincannon, I just needed to get it off my chest. Thanks for being patient. Regards Ian.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2011 9:51:24 GMT -6
I may re-adjust my statement (sorry Quincannon) when I said that there were only 30 bodies found on LSH, I didn't think about the Troopers who tried to either escape or try to chase back the Indians to allow men to escape and get help (depends on which story you believe) there might have been some of the Troopers from the two Coys I have been going on about, killed down in the ravine, when this break out failed. Regards Ian.
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